Ethiopian 737-800 Max crash - No survivors

[facthunter]

You are correct.... As I say I never flew THEM (B707's) They had Balance tabs etc Apparently pretty heavy control forces. I'm surprised they were able to achieve that. The B 727 was certainly a different beast with more flaps and they tried for short(er) runway suitability with lots of flaps and lots of drag associated with them making them somewhat dangerous in the wrong hands. Extra training required as they needed a lot of power on some approaches and there were a few accidents and investigations. Nev

 

 

[johnm]

SONG: found this ditty ................................ a clever song in my book

 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

Mentour pilot recaps the whole 737 MAX situation:

 

 

 

 

[Litespeed]

On 20/12/2019 at 8:14 AM, johnm said:

 

SONG: found this ditty ................................ a clever song in my book

 

Clever but missed it by that much.....

 

Notice the Comet?

 

 

[kgwilson]

Clever but missed it by that much.....

 

Notice the Comet?

 

Not only that but it's a RAF Transport Comet with Roger Millers name on it at the start. I suspect the video creator didn't know his De havillands from his Boeings.

 

 

[IBob]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/dec/21/pressure-on-faa-to-approve-737-max-jets-backfires-for-boeing

 

 

[IBob]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/dec/23/boeing-ousts-chief-executive-dennis-muilenburg

 

 

[kgwilson]

Remember the SBS doco on Boeing whistleblowers in 2011. They got the sack, the problems were ignored, 3 x 737 NGs broke apart on landing overruns & all was pushed under the carpet. At least the latest whistleblower  has already retired from Boeing & has had his say at an inquiry. The Boeing "Profit before Safety" culture has been exposed but has it been eliminated? Dennis Muilenburg is saying all the right things now but he was in this up to his neck all the way through. This saga has a long way to go yet.

 

Well Muilenburg has now paid the price for his arrogance and has been sacked, ostensibly to restore confidence in the company. BUT the current Chairman David Calhoun has taken over so is now CEO and President in the best corrupt US corporate manner. I don't think this will work either. 

 

Boeing sacks CEO

 

With the widespread understanding now of how the "Profit before Safety" culture evolved there has to be a complete shakeup of the entire company. The appointment of the Chief Financial Officer, Greg Smith to the role of interim CEO displays the continued arrogance and focus on profit.

 

 

[facthunter]

The "Culture" was probably all through the Senior Executive of the Company. Certainly none of them can claim ignorance of the facts which goes back Decades. You can even blame to some extent the shareholders who are always happy to take a profit without question, when things are going in their favour. Nev

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

As an individual shareholder the only action you can take is to sell your shares. Otherwise you have zero influence.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Presume they have annual shareholders meetings  where things can be challenged. If ALL they care about is money then cop the results. Companies are meant to provide a risk assessment of their operations, if it exists. The loss of share value is real.  Boeing is a near monopoly  in the USA so perhaps cocky about its "Essential " status.  This ain't over yet Baby.. Nev

 

 

[Thruster88]

In other news the 737 max has been the most environmentally friendly fleet ever produced, that must make some people's happy.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Facthunter, go and buy some shares in a large company and go to the annual meeting as a small shareholder and put up a motion. Let us know how you get on.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not completely naive Mike. One person rarely achieves anything. There's companies I just won't buy shares of even though they sometimes pay good dividends, if I don't like the way they are run or the business they are in. When enough think that way the effect is there. My one vote doesn't alter the world either but I always vote. The shareholders CAN have a considerable effect but often the Institutional ones carry the most sway. This is pretty academic for me in my current circumstances but I was a Superannuation Fund Trustee in a past life. That gets their attention when you've got wads of dough to throw around. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

My one vote doesn't alter the world either but I always vote.

 

Of course Nev, the obverse argument is Scummo's "Too small to make a difference". If everyone had that small minded view of the world we could all forget about choice and line up for a tatood number.

 

 

[DenisPC9]

Someone, a few days ago, quoted that GFC saying "Too big to fail".

 

Someone back in the GFC days, equally senior to the originator of the "Too big ot fail" comment responded with:

 

"If they're too big to fail, they're too big to exist".

 

His rationale was that if they knew they would get Govt bailout after Govt bailout, then why should they really try for the highest standards.  Implicit with the Bailout mentality, was the (almost) surety that after a few Govt Bailouts a bunch of slick lawyers would sue the Govt because it may be then deemed that the Govt had some interest in the product.

 

 

[facthunter]

When GM dropped right down in stock value the Obama Gov't bailed it out and was technically the owner of GENERAL MOTORS for a while. Remember "What's GOOD for GM is good for Americky"?  Look at all the subsidies for Agriculture in the US . Capitalism is a MYTH there now so when are they going to admit it.?  Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

No such thing as a free market if the U S A is involved.

 

Rules exist to punish its competition whether a country or company.

 

Just look at the big airtanker contract. Won hands down by Airbus because the Boeing was overpriced, underachieving and under engineered.

 

So they got Congress to change the rules. Bingo new contract goes to Boeing. Meanwhile they sue Airbus for getting state aid from Europe.

 

If it ain't USA made and owned, you are a likely enemy.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Buying foreign stuff for them is un American. America FIRST backed by an American FIST.  Can't keep happening. They are a rogue nation when the chips are down.  THE real GOD is MONEY.  and the AMERICAN WAY.  Our way or NO WAY, Dude. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

BUT the current Chairman David Calhoun has taken over so is now CEO and President in the best corrupt US corporate manner. I don't think this will work either.

 

I see in todays' Australian that this gentlemen is quoted as being in favour of creating aircraft which were fully automated, ie without pilot input.

 

'We are going to have to ultimately almost - almost - make these planes fly on their own'  Calhoun was quoted as saying in November 2018.

 

Capt Chesley Sullenberger strongly disagrees with this direction. Sully is a great believer in having well trained, and very current (hand flying) flight crew up front to ensure that we have no repeats of these events of machine overcoming man.

 

I am in complete agreement with him.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The latest report is predictable but is likely to get lost in the current hype surrounding the Corona virus and airlines with few passengers. A year ago my opinion was that the culture of profit before safety was the root cause. Well the chickens have now come home to roost. So what now for the Max and indeed Boeing?

 

Report from Congress summary dated 6 March 2020 below.

Congress slams ‘fundamentally flawed’ Boeing 737 MAX & ‘grossly insufficient’ FAA in scathing report

 

Boeing’s 737 MAX aircraft was doomed by the manufacturer’s “culture of concealment” that prioritized cost-cutting over safety, while the Federal Aviation Administration’s poor judgment sealed its fate, the US House has concluded.

A software glitch that should have been discovered and repaired instead shipped by default with all new 737 MAX planes, resulting in a pair of horrific crashes that killed a total of 346 people and forced the grounding of 737 MAX planes worldwide.

 

The error had been concealed by Boeing executives and ignored by FAA regulators, the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee found in its preliminary report delivered on Friday.

The scathing results of the committee's investigation came just days before the anniversary of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302’s disastrous demise shortly after takeoff from Addis Ababa. Less than six months before that, Lion Air flight 610 had also crashed immediately after takeoff from Jakarta.

 

Boeing “failed in its duty to identify key safety problems and to ensure they were adequately addressed during the certification process,” the committee found, excoriating the company’s “culture of concealment” that hid critical issues from not only the FAA but also its customers and the pilots flying its planes. The report slams Boeing for putting cost and schedule ahead of the lives of passengers and highlights the preventable nature of both crashes.

 

The FAA, too, “jeopardized the safety of the flying public” with its “inherent conflicts of interest,” the committee observed. The regulator’s “grossly insufficient” review of the plane “failed…to identify key safety problems,” while the technical experts who did bring up concerns were reportedly pressured into silence. At the same time, Boeing ignored whistleblowers within the company voicing similar concerns. The company’s failure to classify its onboard computerized flight system, the source of the deadly computer error, as safety-critical and meriting special scrutiny violated Boeing’s internal guidelines - but delivering planes on time and under cost was always more important.

[Methusala]

Boeing's 737 *Mini* will end up as saucepans. I love Airbus.

[Guest Machtuk]

Airbus, way of the future!?

Boeing are just another large grubby corporation in bed with the FAA who allow self checking and reporting by Boeing!

I don't believe they will come back from this to be anywhere near what they where pre "Max Disaster"!

[Thruster88]

Airbus, way of the future!?

Boeing are just another large grubby corporation in bed with the FAA who allow self checking and reporting by Boeing!

I don't believe they will come back from this to be anywhere near what they where pre "Max Disaster"!

 

It would be interesting to know how things work with Airbus and EASA, I doubt there is much difference.

 

With more than 4000 orders for the 737 plus all the other types will Boeing have a hard time ? The airlines could cancel their orders and join the back of the 4000 plus que at Airbus. If Boeing fails Greta and some on here will be happy but at what ticket price with no competition? Covid19 could put a lot of hurt on both manufacturers.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes - EASA - a part of that bastion of free markets called the EU - were exposed by Pilot magazine as stonwalling the certification in EASA land of the R66 helicopter as they knew whatever European manufacturer it was that had a competing model that was way more expensive: https://www.pilotweb.aero/news/easa-certifies-robinson-r66-1-3590306. And of course, this would have been a threat to the particualr European manufacturer.

 

I am sure EASA and other European manufacturers work out deals in backrooms when required