Passenger Endorsement

[Chucky]

Can someone tell be what to expect during Passenger Endorsement training?

 

Thanks Alan.:confused:

 

 

[Guest disperse]

The missus constantly telling you what your doing wrong

 

 

[eastmeg2]

You can expect to be trained on introducing non-flying people to your aircraft and gauging whether each person is likely to have an adverse reaction when the wheels leave the ground.

 

And Finally, as part of the practical exam, you can expect your previously knowledgeable instructor to stand there like a dumb sack of spuds waiting for you to tell him/her what to do.;)

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[facthunter]

Passenger endorsement.

 

It should include all aspects of loading, performance & weight and Cof G, and the briefings that you should give your passenger, to ensure his/her comfort and safety. N..

 

 

[Yenn]

OK Troy. I must have been training for mine for over 40 years,

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

It was explained to me by an instructor, with rolling of his eyes, that there is no RPL for this endorsement. Does anyone know a logical reason for that, or is it as illogical as it appears?

 

Obviously I'm not talking about new pilots, but pilots who already carry pax in other categories.

 

What about Joe pilot who works for the airlines Monday to Friday carrying 400 pax on each flight, but goes out to the farm on the weekend to fly his ultralight, he can't take a passenger until he does a passenger endorsement?!!!

 

He's been carrying pax in all sorts of aircraft for years as he progressed from PPL to ATPL, and has probably given hundreds of pax briefings in everything from Cessna 150s to Boeings.

 

He knows the W&B, loading and handling limits of his ultralight already or he shouldn't be flying it.

 

He knows the emergency and evacuation procedures already or he shouldn't be flying it.

 

So what is he going to learn in his passenger endorsement training that he doesn't already know?

 

What about the PPL who currently flies a VH Jab and takes his wife on every flight but wants to fly an RAAus Jab? Suddenly his wife can't fly with him in the same type of aircraft until he obtains a passenger endorsement. Does anyone else hear that bell ringing?

 

I can understand a rule to protect pilots against a knowledge deficiency. But what if there isn't a knowledge deficiency?

 

Or am I missing something?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Its a fair point but the Ops manual doesn't actually specify that you have to have any passenger training for issue of the endorsement. Nor does it define what constitutes a flight test so I would imagine that most CFI would use their discretion in the cases like the ones you describe.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[poteroo]

It does say that you must have the endorsement though - 2.07.5.c and also that you are current - see 2.07.9

 

My understanding is that if your training covers the Principles of Flight, Loading and Operations syllabus as in 3.05, then you should have covered much of the passenger carrying requirements. The rest will be the common sense knowledge imparted and learned as the student progresses. It can't all be in a syllabus.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest brentc]

What about the PPL who currently flies a VH Jab and takes his wife on every flight but wants to fly an RAAus Jab? Suddenly his wife can't fly with him in the same type of aircraft until he obtains a passenger endorsement. Does anyone else hear that bell ringing? Or am I missing something?

It's not quite that bad, if he has a PPL he will automatically get a RAA passenger endorsement. The rules aren't quite as inflexible as they may seem at first.

 

 

[storchy neil]

pasanger endorsment is a must as had in a previous discusion some one had done passanger endorsment they would have known that in raa two persons on board raa registered aircraft is the max this is my under standing off the rules

 

when i take a non flying passenger i explain the what not to touch my brother says i harp at him when he is going with me

 

yes mat did make me feel stupid done the dumb sack off spuds trick good learning curve neil

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Why is this such a hot topic. PAX endorsement is just common sense to inform your pax what to expect, particularly if they haven't flown in a 2 seat aircraft before. A newbie to flying is generally interested in what everything does and why we do this or that. Tell them and there's not going to be panic in the cockpit unless something goes terribly wrong, and then you'll be panicking with them. I took my 16yo granddaughter up a year or so back and when I showed her a stall, she grabbed my wrist, and she got the smack that I had warned her of if she did it. We were in a Jabbie at the time. After that she held onto her seat belt, as I had instructed her to do, when ever she felt uncomfortable or scared, not that I intensionally scared her. A very scary landing, for me, she thought was fun!!!

 

Anyway, back to the subject. Alan, your getting concerned over nothing at all. As I have said, it's common sense really and I doubt that anybody has failed this endorsement.

 

BTW ref the commercial pilot needing this training, he's never had a non crew person in his cockpit before, unless he has been hijacked of coarse.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Isn't it not legal to perform a stall in an aircraft with passengers other than instructor and student???? Just wondering re above post.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

News to me if it is Brent.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Isn't it not legal to perform a stall in an aircraft with passengers other than instructor and student???? Just wondering re above post.

Interesting, I'd be interested to see the reference to the Ops Manual or regs if that is the case.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I'll start looking. Have definitely read it somewhere, but be warned it might be a GA thing so I reserve the right to retract my statement in terms of RAA.

 

BUT that being said though, I and many others out there would recommend strongly about NOT performing stalls with passengers on board, particularly non-flying passengers. Not only are you placing your passenger at risk (and yourself), due to the possibility of entering an incipient spin or something unexpected happening you are potentially scarring the proverbial out of them.

 

This thread is about obtaining a passenger endorsement and is a great example of why we need one - example.... - Deskpilot telling us that his passenger reached for the controls when he performed the stall. Had the passenger been informed as to the procedure that was about to take place and an explanation of what was going to happen, perhaps she wouldn't have reached for the controls. Reaching for the controls by a passenger suggests to me that they are either genuinely concerned for their well-being or they feel that the pilot is possibly not in control.

 

Either way, I am on my high horse yes, however I see absolutely no need for a stall of any kind to be performed with a passenger on board. If your intentions are to scare your passenger, there are other ways to do that safely!

 

 

[Chucky]

Looks like I've opened a big can of worms with this topic. Thanks everyone for their input :) I agree stalls should only be performed during lessons with instructors.The whole purpose is to show you how to save your life in an emergency,not to get a cheap thrill by scaring the **** out of your passenger. If you want to do that take them on the Ghost Train at the next Show/Ekka.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Actually Brent, I did tell her what I was going to do, and what would happen. She just forgot my previous instructions. When did you last practice stall recovery guys? I do a least one every time I fly, as I do at least one touch and go before I leave the circuit. I don't fly as often as some of you so I have to practice my skills and enjoy a scenic flight each flight.

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Just another question regarding the stell with pax, is slapping the pax permited under RAA rules? I just wondered as when I go for my pax rating, I would love to take that little darling Corey with me. No intention of stalling with him, but the slapping bit sounds worthwhile! (please see "Give the little creep a slap" post in the laughter thread).

 

Redair

 

 

[facthunter]

Stalls.

 

Can't see why there is a problem with stalls. I do an INTENTIONAL one every time I, 3-point land my plane. The stall warning drives me wacky. It's not an aerobatic manoeuver and doesn't stress the aeroplane. Some pilots do not like doing them (at all stages of their flying careers ) but all pilots should be familiar with how their aircraft handles, at speeds close to the stall and at the stall, so as to recognise its onset. This of course requires practice (at a safe height). If the individual feels that he wants to do this with an instructor, then that is fair enough. Can't see what is wrong with going with another pilot ( another pair of eyes for a lookout). No unusual manoeuver (unless in an emergency ) should be performed, without proir briefing of the passenger, out of consideration and good manners. Any pilot who scares the cr*p out of a passenger deliberately should see a psychiatrist, or get out of the movement. I'm not suggesting that has happened here. Nev...

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

I don't know of any restriction on stalling with pax in GA Brent. I regularly take family/friends when I do aero's (because they want to do aero's). Stalls are necessary in that context for entering spins, and 3-pointers as Nev points out. Thankfully I've never had anyone grab the stick as was mentioned above, but I'm very careful and ease newby's into it one step at a time after lengthy briefing and preparation. If they don't enjoy a wing over I complete the flight blue side up.

 

 

[Guest disperse]

Isn't it not legal to perform a stall in an aircraft with passengers other than instructor and student???? Just wondering re above post.

it is if I'm the passenger !!

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Facthunter, we're of the same mind. I don't see any problem with practicing stalls, power on/off, or side slips, with or without pax. Yes, always inform them of what you're about to do, and what to watch for, ie, change in rate of decent. If you're going to do a power on stall, slow down first and don't get vicious with the stick. An up and over (roller coaster) is one thing, a real bad wing drop is another and should be avoided(with pax). I only do this when I'm alone in the aircraft. I was taught how to catch it before a spin develops and, as it was part of my training, I still practice it occasionally. Sufficient height is mandatory, I always climb to 3000agl minimum.

 

If I'm in the wrong under RA-Aus rules, then please let me know, plus where to find such ruling.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I've got a couple of thoughts on this: firstly stalling the aircraft in a number of different configs (at safe height) is a mandatory part of familiarising myself with a new a/c type. It's also a mandatory part, in my view, of staying current on and a/c to do a few stalls every now and then. Often that means that I will stall the a/c with another pilot on board, not necessarily a pax. In fact I'd be reluctant to stall with a pax on board unless I was very sure they were going to be OK.

 

As for aeros in VH a/c my clear understanding from reading the regs is that unless you are an instructor and the other person a student then you MAY NOT engage in aeros in an a/c with dual controls fitted. In other words if you want to take a passenger for some aeros you can but you can't have dual controls fitted. Will search out the ref.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Further to my last post:

 

CAR 155 5.1.1 (3) Straight and steady stalls or turns with not more than 60o bank, are

 

not classified as aerobatics.

 

And for the same place (at variance with my previous post):

 

(6) ...• Dual controls are removed or passengers are briefed not to

 

interfere with the controls and there is adequate communication

 

with the pilot. (See Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 226 and

 

Civil Aviation Order (CAO) Section 20.16.3);

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Seems I have opened a can of worms in this thread. My apologies to you Alan for stealing your thread:blush: