Right of Way?

[derekliston]

Interesting occurrence this morning. I was about to depart Warwick for Inglewood this morning, I had heard no radio traffic, the wind was about 10/15kts from the West, pretty much straight down 27. I called taxiing for 27 for a departure to the West, no radio traffic back, then checked visually for traffic and called entering and lining up 27. I opened the throttle and was rolling when a C152 called base for 09!!! I let discretion be the better part of valour and aborted my take off and cleared the runway. The 152 then landed downwind and cleared to the terminal. My question is, Who had the right of way? (I don’t really care, I will always err on the side of caution!) I had already made several radio calls and was rolling on the into wind runway. I suppose he at least did call. The other day, again at Warwick, a Jabiru called base 09 and then landed on 27?? Another could be dangerous situation!

 

 

[Thruster88]

People are always going to make mistakes on the radio I know I have.

 

Airports with AWIS frequency are great for planning a correct circuit entry, AFRU should make it hard to stuff up.

 

 

[Downunder]

I guess into the wind is SUPPOSED to be the correct direction. Especially for light aircraft.

 

We had a bit of a comical situation here when the aircraft in the circuit were all going one way but the wind was blowing either side of 90 degrees across. Then aircraft were taxiing out, seeing everyone landing slightly downwind and demanding a direction change.

 

Not realising in another minute or two the wind would swing 20 or 30 degrees and make THAT direction downwind.

 

 

[old man emu]

I believe that the landing aircraft always has "right of way". However the pilot of the C-152 displayed poor airmanship in many ways, indeed even before airmanship, poor aircraft handling. The effects of a tailwind on landing distance can be quite dramatic.

 

 

[kaz3g]

[/url]http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s162.html

 

Aircraft landing has right of way but poor airmanship displayed.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Interesting occurrence this morning. I was about to depart Warwick for Inglewood this morning, I had heard no radio traffic, the wind was about 10/15kts from the West, pretty much straight down 27. I called taxiing for 27 for a departure to the West, no radio traffic back, then checked visually for traffic and called entering and lining up 27. I opened the throttle and was rolling when a C152 called base for 09!!! I let discretion be the better part of valour and aborted my take off and cleared the runway. The 152 then landed downwind and cleared to the terminal. My question is, Who had the right of way? (I don’t really care, I will always err on the side of caution!) I had already made several radio calls and was rolling on the into wind runway. I suppose he at least did call. The other day, again at Warwick, a Jabiru called base 09 and then landed on 27?? Another could be dangerous situation!

Hi Derek my reminder prompts are;

 

Aircraft on downwind and aircraft enters runway; aircraft on runway has right of way. (I did this on Sunday aircraft backtracking on runway so I extended my downwind and gave way with radio comms.) Perhaps the C152 did not call downwind and called early base to exclude his need to give way to you. or maybe your radio not transmitting etc.

 

Aircraft on final and aircraft on runway; the aircraft on final has right of way.

 

 

 

Aircraft on long final 3 n/miles out, aircraft on base has right of way. (As aircraft on long final must ensure no disruption or conflict with flow of circuit traffic.

 

Would be good to have a friendly chat to C152 and jab pilots or owners to enhance safety and if relevant to the respective situation their awareness of pilot requirements about safety and airmanship. A year or so ago I landed at a small rural airfield and a mate was next to land I called 18 and landed to the south. We were visual before I joined a downwind left hand circuit. After I landed he called landing 18 so on reaching the end of the runway parking bays I setup facing the approach direction to capture his landing on gopro. He landed 36 so I missed the chance of videoing his landing. Had a polite conversation that went along the lines of asking what direction he landed; replied '18' from the south. Hopefully the rest on the talk was educational and a benefit. Cheers.

 

 

[derekliston]

I know my radio was transmitting because after he called base and I aborted take-off I called clear of runway and he acknowledged. Just lately it has begun to surprise me that there are not more accidents. You really have to be 100% alert 100% of the time!

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah landing on 18 but from the other end is a bit lacking in basic orientation.. The instruction or comprehension is a bit deficient there.. How many pilots give the wrong relationship to the area in question? ie "south west of" means the aerodrome is in the opposite direction, North East of you. Called a reciprocal. Add 200 and minus 20 = 180 degrees. .Sure you all know that. If you give the wrong information people are looking in the wrong place trying to locate you. It's bloody dangerous so get it right. please. Nev

 

 

[derekliston]

Not only that Nev, but everywhere I fly, the runway number is written in big enough numerals beside the piano keys for even me with my 72yr old eyes, to read as I turn final!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Not only that Nev, but everywhere I fly, the runway number is written in big enough numerals beside the piano keys for even me with my 72yr old eyes, to read as I turn final!

Except if there’s none written there ( grass strips) or if it’s like we found a few years back when a new set of numbers had been painted on the runway at Tara - wrong way round!

 

 

[facthunter]

You should rely in your compass derek. Sometimes it's grass which I love, with small planes so NO NUMBERS ., That would confirm if you are heading for the wrong one where it might be say 50 degrees difference. where there COULD??? be some legitimate confusion They are not always at right angles to each other. Of course you could land downwind by mistake when misreading the windsock. I let a student do that one day No traffic around and we didn't touch down, which annoyed him immensely. I was only trying to make sure he wouldn't do it again. .

 

 

[derekliston]

Mate, if you read my comments from the beginning of the post, it is not me having trouble with runway headings. I fully agree that grass runways do not have the numbers painted on them, however, Warwick does and that is where I have seen and heard these problems. On one occasion I noted the registration of a C172 which called 27 and landed on 09. I texted the school involved so that they could inform the student and received a reply from their chief instructor who was also on board! I will never be perfect and for that reason double and even triple check. I was on route to Millmerran the other week and heard someone calling Warwick traffic on 126.7 whilst their CTAF is 127.85. I just think that there is a lot of too slack airmanship around. ERSA gives you the frequencies as do the VNCs so there is really no excuse.

 

 

[BirdDog]

I had a similar incident during my training - at an AD that will remain nameless, I was landing from the south, and my instructor noticed another bird directly ahead wanting to land from the north. Now lucky my instructor was on the ball, as this bird was returning from Parachute drops outside of the CTAF, so a quick Freq change and my instructor had him sorted. He was on Base, we were on final. If I was a solo student, that could of got nasty. But he is a big bird and apparently has little care for 10kts tail winds.

 

 

[old man emu]

Consider this.

 

Flying schools are using Warwick as destinations for Nav-exs. The student should have obtained the weather before preparing a flight plan. Surely it would be a good idea to calculate the expected cross-wind component for the strips at the destination and plan the landing approach before flocking off from home base?

 

 

[derekliston]

Can always overfly and check the windsock before descending and joining the circuit. That also lets you see any potential traffic in the circuit or potentially taxying for take-off.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Can always overfly and check the windsock before descending and joining the circuit. That also lets you see any potential traffic in the circuit or potentially taxying for take-off.

Agree. Overfly, observe wind sock, airfield ect. Best three leg circuits for our types. Downwind confirms runway direction and also know in advance elevation, frequently etc. Cheers

 

 

[BirdDog]

We were in the circuit doing a number of them. The parachute plane joins on base. :(

 

 

[frank marriott]

There appears to be some lack of understanding that R/W numbers are not some number thought up by some airport CEO or equally unqualified individual, but actually a magnetic heading to the closest 10°.

 

OR maybe I am reading it wrong?

 

 

[BirdDog]

There appears to be some lack of understanding that R/W numbers are not some number thought up by some airport CEO or equally unqualified individual, but actually a magnetic heading to the closest 10°.

 

OR maybe I am reading it wrong?

Nope - You are right!

 

 

[M61A1]

Mate, if you read my comments from the beginning of the post, it is not me having trouble with runway headings. I fully agree that grass runways do not have the numbers painted on them, however, Warwick does and that is where I have seen and heard these problems. On one occasion I noted the registration of a C172 which called 27 and landed on 09. I texted the school involved so that they could inform the student and received a reply from their chief instructor who was also on board! I will never be perfect and for that reason double and even triple check. I was on route to Millmerran the other week and heard someone calling Warwick traffic on 126.7 whilst their CTAF is 127.85. I just think that there is a lot of too slack airmanship around. ERSA gives you the frequencies as do the VNCs so there is really no excuse.

Perhaps just a slip of the tongue. Maybe a quick call asking them to confirm their choice of runway would have resolved the runway direction issue.

 

I have heard inbound calls to Warwick on 126.7 and also heard someone else advise that they were calling on the wrong frequency, to which, the pilot responded with a “thank you”.

 

A few times I have heard professionals make basic position mistakes on the radio, someone queries them, they correct themselves and keep flying.

 

 

[derekliston]

Would have, but I was only listening on an airband receiver whilst I was doing the daily inspection. I usually have it switched on so that I know what traffic is around (assuming they are using the radio and on the correct frequency!)

 

 

[facthunter]

When you plan your flight the crosswind component of your plane must be taken into account and if above your plane's limit you must carry an alternate. So you should have a pretty good idea of what the wind will be when you arrive long before you arrive.. However it's still just a forecast but should be pretty accurate as it's based on a lot of data. derek sorry if it looked as if I was having a go at you. I certainly did not mean to. The forum is read by many. I'm not doubting the way you do things. . I agree things should be better than they are. Nev

 

 

[derekliston]

Mate, I didn’t think you were having a go. I am in agreement with your comments pretty much always. I just think our sport/ obsession, call it what you will, needs more care than some flyers currently give.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The weather and what is happening at the destination can often change after you plan your flight. The conditions may be completely different when you arrive so you must be able to adapt straight away and make a change as required. At an uncontrolled aerodrome you should announce your imminent arrival at about the 10 mile mark with your location relative to the aerodrome and the ETA in minutes past the hour. If there is traffic make a 3 mile call then if you know the established circuit by then, a joining call. If you are joining straight in on final you don't have right of way when the circuit is already established. Otherwise overfly 500 feet above circuit height, check the windsock and announce joining. You should let down to circuit height on the dead side and preferably join crosswind, slow down on downwind & set up your approach speed and descent on base & touch down perfectly on the piano keys. Getting it wrong is just being careless.

 

Students often get things wrong but it is a very poor instructor who does not make appropriate corrections when radio calls are incorrectly made.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Perhaps just a slip of the tongue. Maybe a quick call asking them to confirm their choice of runway would have resolved the runway direction issue.

 

I have heard inbound calls to Warwick on 126.7 and also heard someone else advise that they were calling on the wrong frequency, to which, the pilot responded with a “thank you”.

 

A few times I have heard professionals make basic position mistakes on the radio, someone queries them, they correct themselves and keep flying.

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