Right of Way?

[Old Koreelah]

...touch down perfectly on the piano keys...

I agree with everything else except this, KG. Surely the piano keys are there as an aiming point for your descent, leading to touch down further down the strip.

 

I was taught to allow for sink on final.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I agree with everything else except this, KG. Surely the piano keys are there as an aiming point for your descent, leading to touch down further down the strip.

 

I was taught to allow for sink on final.

Agreed. If you are a full glide approach aficionado and allow for that bit of sink on very short final and of course the possibility of an engine failure you will always land a bit further down. We don't have any piano keys so I just aim for the wide turnaround at the end of the runway. We have a swampy bit on the approach to 08 (well it used to be swampy when we had rain, which seems an age ago now) & there is often sink there but a bit of power sorts that out. Well that works if the engine is running. I adjusted my idle a bit low at one point and had a couple of Oh S!@# moments a couple of years ago when the engine stopped on me & there was no time to start it again just seconds before the fence & very low in the sink. Got there...just. I practice dead stick landings occasionally but allow plenty of height.

 

Coffs, Casino, Lismore & Evans Head are the closest Piano key runways & all have easy approaches to the main runways so it isn't hard there.

 

 

[derekliston]

At Warwick, landing on 27 I always endeavour to land on (or adjacent to, if on the grass) the piano keys, on 09 I aim beyond the keys because I don’t much like the downhill bit at the beginning. Reasonable undershoot area both ends though!

 

 

[facthunter]

You have the piano keys identifying the ends and the touch down zone is a bit further on. If you touch your wheels on the keys on a route check you shouldn't have a job . You runway length considerations are predicated on touching down in the zone. Touching down earlier is not considered clever. Its' considered a failure of judgement and risky. There are/may be approach lights etc in the grass right up to the end of the runway and the grass isn't guaranteed or designed to support your plane and certainly won't support big stuff especially when wet. You need an allowance for unpredicted sink as well That's why the touchdown zone doesn't start at the end. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

Probably okay on this one:

 

 

[facthunter]

it has a specially prepared part for you to flare on that would take the weight of the plane as well.. Nev

 

 

[derekliston]

Always good info Nev. Just as well I don’t fly for a living isn’t it? My little CH701 is so light that landing short of the bitumen wouldn’t be a big deal even if it was wet (Can’t remember when we last had decent rain!) I try on take-off to line my mainwheels up with the beginning of the keys and go full power with the brakes on, that way I can be off the ground before I cross the numbers. Landing, I try to put it down on the keys. All depends what sort of flying you want to practice. I fly a STOL so that is what I practice, even though I have 1.7km of runway at Warwick. Short landing practice is always good in my book, you never know when you will need it!

 

 

[derekliston]

Not quick but great fun. I love mine!

 

 

[facthunter]

I think that's basically what they are for. Getting there and back is just the excuse.

 

We do go into these other situations though and must obey the rules when we do.

 

My first trip to Bankstown from Newcastle in a DHC-1 Bankstown was an all over field but had a boundary, (not that clearly delineated) I landed and stopped before I even REACHED the aerodrome perimeter. The engineer where I parked at the Royal Aero Club of NSW said "easy to see where you come from." At District Park you had NO room to spare. and flew everything to that situation. We had an Auster come from Bankstown and had over 20 attempts at landing and actually got the wheels on the ground about 3 times. Eventually gave up and returned to Sydney. Most U/Ls that aren't too speedy can outland on some pretty ordinary surfaces. Keep your landing speeds under control and do a good job when you must and it can save your day.. Nev

 

 

[Toestub]

Looks to me the 152 missed a important step on downwind with the whole look out the window to make sure the runway was clear.

 

 

[derekliston]

I think he joined on base without basically any sort of check!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

When you plan your flight the crosswind component of your plane must be taken into account and if above your plane's limit you must carry an alternate. So you should have a pretty good idea of what the wind will be when you arrive long before you arrive.. However it's still just a forecast but should be pretty accurate as it's based on a lot of data. .... snip.

I’d have to caution on the likelihood of forecast accuracy for runway/circuit activity.

 

Personally I’d say it’s almost never what’s forecast.

 

Usually the winds forecast are area winds at higher altitudes. At ground level they often bear no resemblance to the wind forecast nor to the winds even a couple of hundred feet up.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I’d have to caution on the likelihood of forecast accuracy for runway/circuit activity.

 

Personally I’d say it’s almost never what’s forecast.

 

Usually the winds forecast are area winds at higher altitudes. At ground level they often bear no resemblance to the wind forecast nor to the winds even a couple of hundred feet up.

For cross country flying the pilot will usually checking position every 10 minutes, along the route, so should be adjusted to the destination airport by the time he approaches. If traffic is transmitting that will tell him/her the duty runway, if not a check of the windsock on let down (based on the last 10 min check) should clear things up.

 

Northern Australia and Southern Australia have at least two quite different weather patterns, and in the south I'd say the wind directions are more stable. If you're flying from say Victoria to South East Queensland in one day, that constant checking tells you what the weather is doing area by area very well.

 

 

[facthunter]

Regardless of the "accuracy" of the forecast you must carry an alternate or holding fuel based on it to be legal. Apart from local effects generally the MSL Isobars give a good indication of the winds at low level. When they are Light and Variable as the name suggest they may be different but that's covered in the description (variable). They used to often be refereed to as "Light and Vicious" by the comics amongst us. Met updates are available and should be used and complied with. They apply requirements but never give guarantees. Met forecasting is an inexact science Over short distances/times an "actual" helps to confirm. Use all the information you can get.. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

A year or two back, I joined downwind with call, turned base (call), turned final (call) and saw a C150 going down the taxiway.

 

It just kept going. Didn’t stop at the lines on the taxiway exit. Turned onto the runway (I was now on a VERY short final), gave a garbled call and accelerated.

 

I had the barn doors open and detoured across to my right about 10’ AGL as the C150 climbed past me.

 

I called him up to protest...”sorry mate, didn’t see you as I was in a hurry.”

 

FAIL!

 

 

[kgwilson]

Not only in a hurry & not looking but not listening either. What a pathetic excuse. Flying does not need idiots like this.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not good enough is it?. Those are the types who should not fly. Nev

 

 

[derekliston]

Not good enough is it?. Those are the types who should not fly. Nev

I know I keep griping on about it, but it really is not too hard to do the right thing! It just seems that in so many areas nowadays people don’t give a shit about anyone else. Trouble is, in aviation that is probably at least doubly dangerous compared to anywhere else.

 

 

[M61A1]

Looks to me the 152 missed a important step on downwind with the whole look out the window to make sure the runway was clear.

At times I see RA aircraft fly such large circuits, anything observed on the runway on downwind would be out of date by the time they are on short final. Realistically, it would be more appropriate to call "established on a 3 mile final" rather than "turning base". Some of them I could turn base, final , land and be clear of the runway in between the time they call turning base and when they are on "short final".

 

 

[kgwilson]

Are you sure you don't mean GA aircraft M61A1. I arrived overhead at an airfield at 1500 & announced joining crosswind from the dead side. I heard a PA28 announce down wind for the runway I think was the one in use but wasn't sure so thought I wait for his next call. I let down to 1000 joined crosswind turned & announced downwind. No further calls were heard. I slowed to 70 knots & extended flap & announced turning base. I wondered where the PA28 was but as there were several airfields on the same frequency not far away I thought he must have been at one of them. I announced turning final & then heard a call from an aircraft starting up on the ground advising there was another aircraft in the circuit. There was nothing in front of me so I landed. I later found out that I'd turned in front of the PA28 who I did not see and had not made any radio calls since the initial down wind when I was at 1500 on the dead side. I fly compact circuits but flew PA 28s for about 15 years & can't understand why anyone needs to fly enormous circuits like he must have done & not only that with just one radio call. His approach must have been very shallow & not a good option if the engine had stopped.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Are you sure you don't mean GA aircraft M61A1. I arrived overhead at an airfield at 1500 & announced joining crosswind from the dead side. I heard a PA28 announce down wind for the runway I think was the one in use but wasn't sure so thought I wait for his next call. I let down to 1000 joined crosswind turned & announced downwind. No further calls were heard. I slowed to 70 knots & extended flap & announced turning base. I wondered where the PA28 was but as there were several airfields on the same frequency not far away I thought he must have been at one of them. I announced turning final & then heard a call from an aircraft starting up on the ground advising there was another aircraft in the circuit. There was nothing in front of me so I landed. I later found out that I'd turned in front of the PA28 who I did not see and had not made any radio calls since the initial down wind when I was at 1500 on the dead side. I fly compact circuits but flew PA 28s for about 15 years & can't understand why anyone needs to fly enormous circuits like he must have done & not only that with just one radio call. His approach must have been very shallow & not a good option if the engine had stopped.

Agree, a PA 28 can fly a very tight circuit, but there are people out there who've taken the see and be seen rubbish to heart and have argued on here over the years in favour of not using radio, and people it seems who have not been taught to fly circuits, as unbelievable as that may seem. To set up the base turn the PA 28 has one of the best wing references at 45 degrees from the end of any strip I've seen, so no reason at all for cross country downwind or extended base turn.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I fly a PA28. Can only agree. And I call each corner of the circuit unless there is a lot of radio congestion, which is hardly ever.

 

 

[facthunter]

Most aircraft can do a pretty tight circuit. No matter how far and slow you go you still have to arrive over the threshold, at some stage. The more time you spend in the circuit the more risk by exposure to other traffic in close proximity. Nev.

 

 

[M61A1]

Are you sure you don't mean GA aircraft M61A1.

Absolutely positive....Call signs like Sportstar xxxx and Jabiru xxxx , even x-air xxxx and savannah xxxx give it away.

 

 

[rollerball]

Yesterday I was approaching Sarlat-Domme here in France. I expected to land on 10 as aircraft were doing at another location quite close by witha parallel runway. I then heard an aircraft lining up on 28 so queried the runway in use. His reply was 90 degrees wind from the north so you can choose your runway, so I elected to land on 28 and broadcast that fact to the world.

 

My advice to other posters is TALK don't stay silent and assume anything. In this case, it wouldn't have done the other pilot any harm to know that you had heard him and to tell him what you were doing as he might have wanted to reconsider his actions. If as it appears, he was in the wrong it may have avoided other problems that neither of you knew about eg with non-radio traffic who were also planning a landing. Communicate please!