Exceeding the crosswind limit

[Guest pelorus32]

This is what happens when you exceed your xwind limitations:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKyec4F8EMk

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest David C]

This approach has been shown on Sydney TV today , but from a side on perspective . It has been reported as being Hamburg Airport . It appears from this video that a wingstrike occured , and from the spray coming off the runway , power was applied at the last second and a succesful go around initiated .

 

Dave C

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Just on Ten News too. What I wonder is why he continued and did not make a decision to go around sooner? That wind was howling!

 

 

[Matt]

Funny, was thinking the same thing when I saw it. The news is praising his skill in recovering, more luck than skill I'm thinking. I'm surprised he didn't go around a lot earlier, he was seriously struggling to maintain centreline after he flew over the fence.

 

 

[vk3auu]

I thought he was doing OK until he kicked it straight, but then he forgot to keep the upwind wing a bit low to counteract the drift and that was where he got into trouble.

 

David

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, i reckon he was right on the money untill he straightend up, probably abit more float then he anticipated and the adverse roll with the huge rudder kick to the left...Was good to see he went around but, ive seen a few like this where the pilot has another shot at it..great bit of footage but;);)

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

A mate of mine has lots of experience driving heavies. His take on this was as follows:

 

Company Spin: Skilled pilots avert disaster.

 

Company in private: Sack the bastards - do it quickly and quietly.

 

These guys stuffed up big time. The travelling public have a right to expect that their drivers will bail out when the conditions do not support a safe arrival. Either they didn't have the skills or they were exceeding the a/c demonstrated limits. Either way why should they visit their ego problems on a bunch of passengers?

 

I hope they were sacked.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[facthunter]

Dangerous?

 

This was a close call for sure. I may be corrected here but in response to the last 3 posts, the aircraft was in deep trouble at the point where it was turned to track down the runway centreline. With the wing sweepback that most jets have , once the into-wind wing gets above horizontal, it's really going pear-shaped fast. I don't think that the airbus can do anything but coordinated turns, ( the later sidestick equipped models), so it would bank and get into trouble at that point. That's how it looked to me. Nev..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

My take on this is that at or about 31 seconds on the Youtube clip he had seriously lost the centreline. Hard to estimate height but certainly under 100' and probably around 50'. He was essentially doomed to problems from that point. It took him about 2-3 seconds from that point to apply some turn into the wind to regain the c/l and at that point he appears to have somewhere at or above 30 degrees of crab on. At 36 seconds on the clip he is still turning, has not regained the c/l and is about 30 feet maybe less.

 

At 38 seconds he begins to kick off the crab and applies no contrary aileron to counter the roll (Nev I don't know whether normal law allows for crossed controls however 'Bus drivers elsewhere seem to suggest that it does). So we get a fairly substantial roll left as a result of the yaw and then it is really all over. Also at 38 seconds as he kicks straight he has already passed through the upwind side of the c/l - he's behind the a/c all the way. At 41 seconds he has passed back through the c/l going the other way and is trying to start a crab back into the wind which is not really established until 43 seconds. He continues to drift downwind and at 46 seconds or just a tad before he applies power for the GA. At 59 seconds well on the way to a climb out he finally regains c/l.

 

I think that the most telling point is at 18 seconds on the video - he is at that point banking to regain c/l.

 

My take is that he was never stable and he was at times very seriously behind the a/c. He should have gone around before he crossed the fence.

 

I say he because I very much doubt that it was a woman.

 

This guy was not coping with the conditions or the aircraft long before he kicked it straight.

 

A very bad look and combined with the BAe 146 incident at City of London it makes you wonder whether we are seeing a serious fall in training standards.

 

Easy to say from my armchair

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[facthunter]

Examine.

 

Mike, you may have better facilities than me to freeze the frames, and examine in more detail. Look for big rudder input (left) for runway alignment and evidence of aileron and spoiler on RH wing. Spoilers are very effective for roll control, and easy to see from behind. The point that you make re safety is valid, unless the landing was an absolute necessity, a go-around should have been initiated much earlier. Passengers buying a ticket with an airline should be entitled to a flight where SOP's (standard operating procedures) and operational limitations are complied with as per the Operations Manual. It is much better to not put the aeroplane into a hazardous situation at all, than to just manage (with a bit of luck) to extricate it from it. Nev...

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

The Airbus (as most modern jetliners have) has a GPWS call-out of 'minimums' approaching the pilots decision height (to land or go around). Both the crew have clearly ignored all of these warnings and continued to the point it could have been alot worse. I have heard comments that it was 'skill'. That's bull:censored:. I think it was luck and stupidity.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

I saw the clip as well, and was dumbstruck when I saw he did not go around a helluvalot earlier than he did.

 

More good luck than good management.

 

A few of the pilots at work chatted about it, and the common feeling was the conditions were too bad, and a go around should have happened earlier, but looking at this vid, his crosswind technique was a bit out of practice, as mentioned in earlier posts... he didnt count on the wind lifting the wing when he kicked her straight...

 

BUT, thats me, sitting in an armchair..

 

Ben

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lads, i could post 100 vids up here where the crab angle and apparent xwind was just as severe if not worse, look at some of the thai kak landings on youtube and you'll see, so these guys putting the big birds down and kicking off the crab in the last seconds are skilled where these guys in this vid are bad pilots because they got it wrong?? i think not.. sure, they should have gone around, so why didnt they, ill have a guess, its because they have done it 100 times before and got away with it.. if he would have stuck the landing just after kicking off the crab it would have been an exellent example of crab xwind technique, but as it turned out he floated and didn't hold off the adverse roll( mabye he wasn't able to as Nev said) so he gets crucified by us and the media..

 

Like i said, there are 100's of vids with extreme xwind landings handled prefectly and the only differance is he missjudged the kickoff (IMO)..

 

Having said all that, i tottaly agree that paying passengers have evry right to a safe ride, perhaps the industry needs to take a harsher stand on xwind landings and get the aloowable limits away from the acft's rated max xwind?? just becasue an acft can handle 30 kts of xwind doesn't mean it should handle it??

 

My 2 cents

 

(ps) expecting a drilling over this one..;)

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

And drilled you will be I'm sticking with it was way to dangerous for an RPT operation. It became silly when the wing scraped the ground (which should have never happened). If you think the angle looks peculiar in the video, it would have been ten times worse in the cockpit. I reackon that they had to change their jocks though.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, no argument that it was dangerous, my argument is that up untill he stuffed up the kickoff it was no more dangerous then 100's of other video's and no doubt 100's of other similar landings that the pilot would have done..

 

hehe, apart from the wingscrape looks like a normal day out in the jabiru..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Yea, no argument that it was dangerous, my argument is that up untill he stuffed up the kickoff it was no more dangerous then 100's of other video's and no doubt 100's of other similar landings that the pilot would have done..hehe, apart from the wingscrape looks like a normal day out in the jabiru..

If that's a normal day out in the Jab...then Houston we have a problem.

 

You know you have a problem when you aren't holding the centre line on approach. You know you have a problem when you are madly zig zagging down the runway, utterly behind the aircraft.

 

The people who drive these aircraft think this is a crap performance. Any early solo student is drilled and drilled until they can reliably hold the centre line. If they can't then they are drilled to GO AROUND.

 

It is no different with the big aircraft - hold the centre line, have a stable approach or GO AROUND. Crosswind landings contribute significantly to the accident rates on heavy aircraft. These pilots are governed by standard operating procedures. They are one way of making these operations safe. This a/c undoubtedly busted SOPs. We also can learn from that approach.

 

http://www.flightsafety.org/alar/alar_bn8-7-crosswind.pdf

 

This wasn't standard or safe. And it wouldn't be any safer in a Jab.

 

Contrary to an earlier post of mine it appears the the F/O may have been flying this and that she was a woman.

 

Mike

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Here's 1 example..It seems to be all filmed on the same day at the same strip.. 3 or 4 airliners attempting approaches in a very strong xwind, note that none of them pullout and goaround untill the last second..One guy seems to almost get the wheels down b4 he bails..Its hard to know the exact conditions, but deffinatly a very very strong xwind and they all have a good crack at it..The same thing could have happend to anyone of these guys..But i bet they had fun telling there company sup's about the wicked wind they had that day and got it in..and still had jobs the next day.;)

 

the last half of the video is the same acft( i think) making it in, but the wind has obviously died a little..

 

 

cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mike..I was only kidding about the jab..im not that bad (anymore)... Certainly reminds me of my early training on xwinds though..;);)..I have made an approach right on the max xwind rated speed of 14 kts in the J160.. i went around and decided id not try that again for a while...winds were very gusty to which doesn't help..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Merv,

 

I'm going to be very direct here. The reason for that is that lots of people read these forums and I think we have an obligation to be focused on safety and good flying.

 

You may feel like I am humourless on these sort of subjects. You may feel like I am a bit of stickler on stuff like this. You may think I lack a sense of adventure. I don't know what you think.

 

What I do know is that when you've seen people that you've trained with killed in aircraft; when you've spent days searching for people who took off in crap conditions and disappeared; when you've had nightmares for a long time afterwards about the things that likely happened to those people; when you watch your very precious daughter flying: then you develop an attitude that is focused on safety and you lose your sense of humour about it.

 

About 3 weeks ago a cousin of mine died - in an aircraft accident. He first went solo on 16 January this year. He was 17 years old.

 

Does my attitude and approach mean I won't die in an aircraft? No it doesn't. does it mean I'm doing my best to lengthen my odds? Yes it does.

 

Does it mean that I care very deeply about the skills and attitudes of other RA pilots? Yes it does. Does it mean that I am very discriminating about instructors, their attitudes and skills? Absolutely.

 

I am not sorry if you feel that I'm a wet blanket. But I just don't ever want to see another aircraft accident or another dead person.

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Well said Mike. I always try to get the same point across. Sometimes (and not you Merv) falls on deaf ears.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mike..Im terribly sorry about your cousin.. i don't know what i said to inspire that reply, the only 'joke' i made was about my own early flying training in xwinds..My point regaring the video was simply that it was dodgy but hardly a single event worthy of such scorn..They all do it..They aren't supposed to land in storms either, but many do.. Pilots and ego's are birds of a feather.

 

I know all about the bad dreams mate, your preachin to the chior.. Ive lost dear friends aswell in acft prangs.. I once turned down a flight with my late instructor (who was as dear a friend as they come) to help him with a lollydrop, he then took his son (whos birthday it was) instead and during that flight the wing came off the skyfox and both were killed. In front of his family and dozens of children and friends..I wrote an article in the RAA mag (november 07 issue entitled dreams) describing how this event nearly brought me completly undone and how much i had to go through to get back in the saddle..So when an aircraft you should have been in takes off without you and snaps in half and kills a dear friend and his son, this would give anyone a reason to give up flying and loose thier sence of humour..

 

But Will i ever loose my sence of humour and love of life?? Not a chance..

 

I don't know how you got the idea i thought you were a wet blanket..I wasn't making lght of anything accept my own stuffups during training..And thats a case of if i don't laugh i'll cry..

 

I too have a very serious attitude towards safety, if you don't believe me then come and get bored watchinmg me spend 20 minutes preflighting a plane that just got back from a half hour flight with 2 instructors who had spent 2 minutes preflighting it..

 

I think mabye you think im condonig the behaviour of the pilots in the video or something?? i don't know.. Nothing could be further from the truth..

 

Was it unsafe?? of course it was

 

Is it a rare event?? Hell no.

 

Do I attempt landings when things go so wrong?? Not a chance..

 

i hope i have made myself clear

 

cheers

 

 

[facthunter]

They all do it?

 

Without trying to dump on you motza, I can't see where you are coming from when you say they all do it, (bust limitations) Pilots & ego's etc. Pretty big generalisation!

 

.......I would not employ such people. I'm not saying that they don't exist, but they usually get weeded out fast, in an airline environment, and they would be a tiny minority. Knowingly (deliberately) operating an aircraft outside standard SOP's and limitations , is a criminal offence, with serious penalties. Pilots are often put under pressures to do the wrong thing, (overload, take less fuel, carry unserviceabilities, extend duty hours without specified rest etc.etc.), often by a desperate employer, who cannot make ends meet, and usually with a single pilot crew. When these people are detected , they lose their AOC, get fined and go out of business. In a multi-crew situation, how long will the co-pilots sit and watch a "cowboy" operate without doing something about it? (especially in Australia). Not very long , because their neck is in it too. Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok, so mabye not all...but alot do it.. Here is the weather forcast for the time they landed

 

EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008

 

So are you guys telling me that these pilots just out of the blue desided to ignore the report and try a hasty landing with a huge gusting crosswind, and possibly be ifr down to 800 feet??..as i said b4 i could find 100's of video's of pilts doing exactly that..

 

I recently saw a sequence of radar images superimosed over a major american Airport which also showed the acft traffic in and out of the field..Now, the rain was extreme in poickets and the winds incredibly strong with reported microburst activity...How many radar blips turned away from the field?? have a guess, this was a major airport with high density traffic... NONE...not one airliner aborted the landing and went up to wait or diverted..The sequence was spead up and accountyed for about 20 minutes while this storm rolled through...During that time there was probably 20-25 blips approaching and landing on 2 parralel runways..

 

Was it a comlete coincidance that all the bad pilots in America had converged simultaniously on this field??...i don't think so.. Each guy saw the one in front get in and decided to have a go themselv'es..

 

Now, i think its shocking that these guys act this way with all those lives at stake, but the fact is, a lot of them do it..and the bad thing is, most of the time they get away with it... I was recently chatting to a 737 driver who had just returned from a stint in asia.. He said that he routinly put his bus in over the company's max xwind and that the company knew all the guys did it, but kept there max allowable xwind quite low compared to the acft's demonstrated ability to save there asses in the event a pilot stuffed up doing exactly what they knew and even encouraged him to do..

 

I hope i am not sounding like i condone this behaviour, its appaling, but very widespread..

 

cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Just out of interest here's some shots of the incident.

 

The second and third shots are interesting, note there's another acft either landed and taxing or about to takeoff, either way one would assume they were opperating in similar conditions..

 

Note the last shot, some flights are delayed by hours, and others by only minutes..So whats the differance?? Im only guessing, but i'd reckon some pilts are not willing to fly in there while others are..

 

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[Guest Fred Bear]

The A320s (safe) crosswind limit is just about 30kts 38 or so for gusts. Here is another pic.