Northwest Airlines overflies destination.

[wags]

I am not sure I have posted this in the correct area but I wanted other aviators to read this account.

 

What follows is a report direct from the mouth of the Captain of that aircraft. The same, or similar thing can happen to all of us, even RAAus pilots. A number of small unrelated occurrences made it into a major drama. What is of real concern is the way they have been treated by the FAA (Federal Aviation Agency- same as CASA) and don't think it wouldn't happen here under the "new" CASA! Sorry about the length of the post, but I believe it is of some importance and perhaps has relevance to all of us who fly.

 

Info on NW Flt 188

 

This was passed along to me and thought you all might find it very interesting reading considering the press stopped following this story once these guys lost their licenses.

 

I had a one hour conversation very recently with the North West Airlines (NWA) Captain who overflew his destination - Minneapolis (MSP) USA yesterday and would like to shed some light on what happened re the over flight of their destination.

 

Although there are many events that helped to cause this, the Capt takes full responsibility and places no blame on anyone but himself. He is very humbled by what has happened and fully understands that as Captain, he was responsible for the a/c, crew and passengers. That said, he wanted me to know how it all happened.

 

On their flight from San Diego to Minneapolis, shortly after passing Denver, the flight attendant (f/a) called the cockpit to let them know the Capt's crew meal was ready. The Capt was the "flying pilot" on this leg, so he told his F/O that when the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom. When the Capt returned to the cockpit, the f/a left the cockpit and he began to eat his crew meal. When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary for the other pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such as altitude, heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes, etc. In this instance, nothing was said....even though the F/O had received a frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the F/O never got a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.

 

Denver Center was trying to get a hold of them because they never checked in by radio on hand-over, because the F/O had dialed in the wrong freq...... that is who called them so many times.... in the middle of all this there was a shift change at Denver Center and no one briefed the new controller that there was a NORDO A/C (non communications) in their airspace....so, in actuality, ATC basically "lost" this a/c.....see Wall Street Journal article link below.

 

The Captain told me he heard ATC chatter on the speaker and so never thought they were out of radio range..... but, of course, they were hearing pilots talk on Winnipeg Center. For non-pilots..... when we don’t hear anything for a long while... we ask ATC if they are still there.... sometimes they are and sometimes you are out of their area and need to find a new frequency. With this chatter going on, there was no concern that they were not being controlled.

 

The Captain told the F/O that the new bidding (roster) system was horrible and that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain days off so he could see him off..... the F/O said he could help him, he knew more about the new roster system. The Captain got his lap-top out and put it on his left leg and showed the F/O how he entered his bid for what he wanted. He had his lap-top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the F/O said that he would show him how to do it a better way using his lap-top. The F/O had his lap-top out a maximum of 5 minutes.

 

A 100 kt tail wind was affecting them while they had this discussion and was not helping matters.

 

The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone (no they did not kick the door down, and no one was sleeping, and no one was fighting) and asked when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320 kt setting, when the F/O called on the frequency, which of course was Winnipeg Center, he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They asked where they were and the F/O told them over Eau Claire, which was not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even though they were right over the top of the city.

 

They were then radar vectored all over the sky to determine if they indeed had control of the a/c (ie no terrorists in cockpit) and the Capt kept telling the F/O to tell them they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with 11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2 hours in an A320) and only 15 minutes past schedule, even though they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an ATC flow restriction.

 

In the jet-way when they pulled up awaiting them were FBI and every other authority you can imagine.

 

Aftermath and tidbits:

 

Although these pilots filed an NASAP (dob-yourself-in) Report, which is designed to have pilots tell the truth about events (so the FAA can learn from them) they had their licenses revoked by the FAA (equivalent to CASA) even before they came out of their meeting with the NTSB (Safety Bureau). Has a somewhat familiar ring to it I think!

 

The FAA is really big on a new regulation which will allow pilots to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the approach... the FAA guys insisted that they were sleeping.

 

An MSP FAA representative, Vance (do not know last name) was the person who handed the Capt his revocation letter (which was leaked to the entire world by the FAA). The Capt said Vance had tears in his eyes and walked away, saying nothing. It was later learned that the entire MSP FAA office did not agree at all with revoking the pilot's licenses, but had no jurisdiction over the matter, since FAA had total control over the matter.

 

The pilots have had several meetings with authorities. They met with the airlines chief pilot and the Capt said they could not have been nicer. They are working to resolve this, not to try and fire them. But of course, they will have to get their license back to consider allowing them to continue flying. An appeal has been filed with the FAA to reinstate their licenses or to settle on some form of punishment, etc.

 

When the Capt and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB officials were. The next morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to the Capt and said he did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio communications, they had been followed and separated.

 

Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS (an intercompany call system), but the A320 does not have a chime to attract attention if called... it only has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.

 

The Capt always ensures he has 121.5 tuned, but as we all know as pilots, it can get very noisy at times and we turn it down and sometimes forget to turn it back on. He told me this may have been the case.

 

So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode. Anyone would have likely prevented it..... properly checking in on the new frequency would have been the first one.

 

A note about laptops.....in NWA's A.O.M (Airman's Operation Manual), it does not say they can't use a laptop in flight; soon all airliners will need lap-tops for the electronic charts to be introduced.

 

These are the facts and again, the Capt said he feels very bad for the company and the pilots and is hoping for a positive outcome on their appeal. With 24 years at NWA, 21,000 blemish free hours, it would be a mistake to ruin his career over this in my opinion.

 

F.A.A. Fails to brief new controller on duty (WSJ Article)

 

FAA Reacted Slowly to Errant Jet - WSJ.com

 

 

[dazza 38]

Thanks for sharing that with us wags.I just want to add, it goes to show that people with 1 hour or 21 000 hrs, were all human and mistakes happen.I IMO dont think you should lose your licence over it.

 

 

[winsor68]

Wow...the aircraft overflew its destination by about 30 minutes...that is a long way in an Airbus.

 

 

[dazza 38]

That is a long way in a airbus, but as we have learned in a/c crashes or any incidents, it is normaly, not only one mistake, but a chain of events that co-incide to make a big mistake. If that make sense. Im think that that is shown in this case if you know what i mean. Cheers

 

 

[wags]

Knee-jerk reaction by FAA

 

I agree Dazza, but one of the really interesting things is the over-reaction by the FAA in taking the guys licences without first finding out all the facts. They could have easily just suspended them from flying duties for a period until the facts were fully investigated. It was very obvious that nothing that might compromise air safety happened. Appears the FAA are out to make a big point here, although the facts don't support their knee-jerk reaction and method of handling the whole scenario.

 

A big worry here in this country is that with the cancellation of the Controlled Airspace approval for RAAus, whoa betide the first guy/gal who goes through controlled airspace without the correct licence in place (PPL or higher) or even infringes controlled airspace. Would not mind placing a bet that CASA under our "new man" might just react in a similar way to the FAA in the story above and make an example of them. There a few out there who "push the limits" and although they get away with it mostly, someday they will get caught and then.... wouldn't want to be in their shoes!!!

 

At the Gympie Aero Club dinner on Saturday next, my question to the CASA CEO will be why can't RAAus pilots as a minimum get approval (with suitable competency based training on an individual basis) to be allowed to transit VFR lanes through controlled airspace?

 

Case in point is anyone who lives North of the Gold Coast and wants to fly down the coast to (say) Evans Head for their fly-in during January (bad weather around then, thunderstorms etc over ranges) are forced to go over real tiger country purely because they can't fly through what is an established VFR lane through the Coolangatta CTA. This VFR lane is not over the hills to the west and is well away from any traffic into Coolangatta. Seems they (CASA) are intent on making it very hard for aviators who just want to fly cheaply and have fun, but they are guilty of perhaps forcing us to take risks that are very easily reduced to almost nothing. You can achieve anything with the right training with a good instructor.

 

Don't understand their (CASA) thinking... maybe they are from Mars?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

More likely Uranus........................................................

 

 

[eastmeg2]

More likely Uranus.......................................................................................

Here here . . . the path to future freedoms requires paying homage and kissing it.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I just started reading december Aviator Mag, Theirs a bit on John McCormick, basically, it is saying that he is not a very happy chappy at the moment. He is sick of the continuous barrage of personal insults and irriational attacks from the aviation industry, upon the regulator and upon individual CASA officers. (his words not mine). It also goes on to say that anywhere else in the world, the slander etc, would be dealt with in the high courts. Cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

And I wonder why the whole industry has turned the hose on him?

 

Could it be something he said?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

...At the Gympie Aero Club dinner on Saturday next, my question to the CASA CEO will be why can't RAAus pilots as a minimum get approval (with suitable competency based training on an individual basis) to be allowed to transit VFR lanes through controlled airspace? Case in point is anyone who lives North of the Gold Coast and wants to fly down the coast to (say) Evans Head for their fly-in during January (bad weather around then, thunderstorms etc over ranges) are forced to go over real tiger country purely because they can't fly through what is an established VFR lane through the Coolangatta CTA. This VFR lane is not over the hills to the west and is well away from any traffic into Coolangatta. Seems they (CASA) are intent on making it very hard for aviators who just want to fly cheaply and have fun, but they are guilty of perhaps forcing us to take risks that are very easily reduced to almost nothing. You can achieve anything with the right training with a good instructor.

 

Don't understand their (CASA) thinking... maybe they are from Mars?

Thats a bit like Coffs Harbour....oh wait... there is no VFR lane, only tiger country to the west... perhaps thats why Im constantly being amazed at what flys past low and slow just off the coast, all the time wondering what was said, and to whom, to allow that to occur??? Ive never understood why Coffs deserved class D and say Ballina or Port Macquarie are not controlled airspace at all yet roughly the same amount and type of RPT's including up to 737's or Virgin Embraier 190's use all these airports. Why can I fly legally at Ballina but not at Coffs... Sigh complaining about it will just have everything reclassified as Class D...oh hang on...thats already underway isnt it

 

Andy

 

 

[Thx1137]

I just started reading december Aviator Mag, Theirs a bit on John McCormick, basically, it is saying that he is not a very happy chappy at the moment. He is sick of the continuous barrage of personal insults and irriational attacks from the aviation industry, upon the regulator and upon individual CASA officers. (his words not mine). It also goes on to say that anywhere else in the world, the slander etc, would be dealt with in the high courts. Cheers

Fair enough to a point. It is not exactly unknown for people to moan without good reason and aussies are pretty renowned for it! I think sometmies the facts get distorted and we feed on each others opinions a too much, it is very easy to do, especially when facts are not easy to obtain.

 

I can't say I have seen much in the way of insults, certainly people are trying to work out where he stands on various issues and what his agenda is. If his views and agenda aren't clear then people will guess based on hints and his past. What else can we, people with an interest in the situation do?

 

Complaining about it won't help them though. If they want to improve the situation they not only have to do "the right thing" but be seen to be doing it. An unpopular decsion may actual be reasonable but unless we can see how the reasoning was performed it wont be "seen" as the "right thing".

 

Steven.

 

 

[wags]

Safety first one would think!

 

It's an almost unbelievable situation Andy... and the powers that control the situation have simply stuck their heads up their...... (Maj used the term correctly I think) and seem to ignore the fact that they are forcing people into potentially dangerous situations on a daily/weekly basis. The answer is very simple... allow transit through established VFR lanes for suitably trained RAAus pilots who want to take advantage of the fact that they can reduce the risk factor. Usually the lanes are away from normal IFR traffic flow anyway. I don't want to pay the exorbitant landing fees at these places anyway... I'm more than happy to just pass the place by - safely!

 

I've come across people in the past who think the way to getting what they want is to threaten their opponents with litigation in the belief that this will shut them up. There is a very simple answer - if the oven is too hot... get out. No doubt the position was applied for by the man in question in the first place. If he had been conscripted I'd probably feel sorry for him, but he wasn't!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Wags, well said. I'm sure he's taking home a sizeable wad of our tax dollars each week, for his troubles. I don't believe I can ever recall any CASA/CAA head, who has held the job without encountering some dramas...it has to come with the territory. Maybe the reason things don't run super smooth, is because the system is still full of bumps, that need to be ironed out or modified ?. I mean you being an airline pilot who possibly flys within the FAA system, should know what I'm talking about ?. The yanks have gone a long way toward ironing out the bumps over the years in their system, while we just keep re-inventing systems, full of new bumps !!.................

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Back to the thread for a bit. I'm amazed just how the aircraft with all the high $ nav gear on board could just go sailing on past it's decent point. Hell my 300 buck Tom Tom tells me that i have reached my destination.

 

if you lot really have a problem with transiting via VFR lanes just mass write to the guy and say you have had enough of the tiger country alternative crap and as of this date you will be going via the vfr lane. Maybe even write to the RAAus and ask them to drop Jonny a line or two on the subject. Altho i think that the EAA would be of more help.

 

 

[dazza 38]

HI all, well said about us using VFR lane around cooly, i used to hire a skyfox at murwillumba, then i decided to fly a piper out of Coolangatta, i had not flown a GA a/c for about a year i think. This was around the year 2000. Anyway, the training area south of Coolly, the instructor i flew with, said THIS is our training area, i said Oh realy, we fly in the same training area, out of Murwillumba in Ultralights. He wasnt happy. Although things have changed abit since then, their are a few schools in GA, NOT ALL, that feel threaten by RAA, back then and now. That is why IMO, we still have alot of people against us, mainly because they feel threaten by us. They talk about safety,(CASA) and as mentioned by yourself, flying up the coast here or at Coffs would be safer than, going west into tiger country. Cheers

 

 

[wags]

FAA is pro-active, CASA is reactive.

 

Hit the nail on the head Maj.

 

The problem is that the whole time I have been flying the CASA scenario has been reactive... bit like the boy with his finger in the dyke. Nobody has got it right and it doesn't look like this mob can or will either. Maybe because they simply don't want to listen, who knows why?

 

In the US the system is proactive and they look for ways to iron out those bumps. Doesn't explain the FAA reaction to the overflight though which is disappointing. Maybe still got a case of 911 reactive impulses? Just imagine what would happen here in similar circumstances in the current environment.

 

Maybe I'll take up something a little easier... like skateboarding with an engine. I'm getting too old and grumpy for much else!

 

 

[winsor68]

I thought they cancelled the pilots licenses...surely down the line they can be re-instated.

 

I don't think the brevity of the mistake these pilots made can be overlooked...And if I was an FAA honcho and heard the pilots story, I think I would cancel their licenses...Someone commented they couldn't understand how the pilots managed this as he would have found it hard with a Tom Tom GPS in the cockpit of his aircraft let alone the multiple systems in the Airbus...I mean at the least the pilot only had to look at the clock to know something was not up...These guys lost situational awareness in an Airbus travelling at 480knots...I would not be comfortable with a regulator that did not cancel their licenses...

 

Oh...sorry...back to thread...yeah CASA sucks...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yes look I feel a bit sorry for those guys also, and it probabily was a bit of a rushed decision to cancel licenses. I get the impression the order may have come from higher up, than the FAA. On the other hand, and I know hindsight is 20/20 and crystal clear, they were sort of...well 'asleep at the wheel'...or was it a case of the old 'I thought you were flying !' syndrome ?. No doubt a real hard one to talk oneself out of.

 

While I was at Hamilton Island, one of the better, and most experienced line pilots, did a wheels-up in a float equipped Caravan on his last landing for the day, on the Hammo strip. Unfortunatly it wasn't his first wheels-up, and it cost him the job. The boss's point was " If he forget to put them down, he could just as easily forget to pull them up for a water landing, with 12 tourists onboard, and then we'd be looking at some bodies" I had recently taken the wife and daughter on a reef tour with the same pilot, which included water landings, and I couldn't argue with him...................................

 

 

[turboplanner]

You guys did verify this "direct from the mouth of the pilot story"?

 

 

[wags]

Came from a friend in US

 

Yes, I believe the authenticity of the document as it came from a friend in the US who knows Tim Cheney (the Captain) personally. There is a huge push in the US to try and get some sense into what has become a ridiculous situation. And yes the crew made a big mistake, but please put up your hands if you haven't ever made a mistake yourself. The outcome was that no safety regs were infringed and the aircraft and pax were never in any danger... other than being intercepted by fighters. But that also failed to happen and has been swept under the carpet probably to protect certain military people.

 

Rostering invades the lives of airline pilots and you live your life around what roster you get each month - that's why they were so easily distracted. The worst part of the roster system is that what you get is based on seniority... the lower end guy gets all the crap most of the time and very rarely gets to choose how his life will pan out. Some operators have now addressed this problem by having a form of rotating seniority when it comes to certain parts of your employment. Back to subject...

 

I posted the letter for a couple of reasons...

 

1. To show what a knee-jerk reaction the FAA had - and I believe the same reaction would happen here under CASA (seemed appropriate as we have been discussing CASA performance a lot in this forum of late). The FAA didn't even bother to find out the facts before acting to remove licences - a temporary suspension would have been in order before cancellation. I am told that in the US cancellation throws up all sorts of problems when it comes to re-instatement.

 

2. The situation can happen here even in an RAAus aircraft, albeit on a smaller scale and probably not as dramatic. One small bit of info was not passed on in both situations, the ground and in the air at very nearly the same time, setting the scene for what became a major scenario. It all revolves around that Human Factors stuff.

 

3. Also reminds us all not to trust our "aids to navigation" (GPS) without applying simple easily used mental cross-checks to ensure what we are seeing is indeed correct. Too many rely blindly on the electronics in front of them. This was a perfect example of just that when they became distracted and didn't revert to the use basic nav techniques, they would have twigged straight away that something was very wrong.

 

I'm not making excuses for them, the Captain has taken full responsibility for what happened, but it is scenarios like this that everyone can learn a great deal from.