VFR in CLOUD, why so hard ???

[Guest disperse]

As long as I have a artificial horizon correctly installed and working and I trust and use this against my own senses... Why is it so hard to fly through cloud.

 

Why is there so much chance of sprialling in.

 

I remember whatching air crash invest about a jumbo with a failied engine on auto pilot. For some reason it slowly lent. while the pilots were left wondering why there AF wasn't working, and then the back up failed.... This particular episode ended with the pilots doing some amazing aerobatics in a 747 that tore peices off it's surface... But it landed.

 

I could understand that if you don't have a AF.... Then you need to be handy with other methods. But if you do have one ...... Then why is it so hard to keep it flying??

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I think the hard part is not trusting your senses and relying on the instruments. Flying through cloud is not really that hard if you can do this but not being IFR rated makes it quite difficult to spot the rocks, figure out that you have just overflown your waypoint by 50 miles, etc.

 

While on the subject of a failed AH I did this as part of my training for PPL. I think it was more as an educational exercise than as part of the curriculum but it did highlight how much info you get from the AH. Using a combination of other instruments to do the same job really is quite taxing and I would not envy anyone who had to do it for an extended period.

 

 

[Paul Willett]

It's not neccessarily hard.

 

You just need training, practice, recency, a correctly certified aircraft and an appropriately endorsed licence.

 

If you don't have all of those you will most likely be a statistic.

 

 

[hihosland]

It's not hard

 

Like riding a bike is not hard.

 

but

 

you fall off the bike you get up and do it again

 

you fall of your aeroplane you die.

 

Imagine not being able to ride a bike and the bush fire is roaring down on you faster than you can run.

 

All you have to do is get on the bike and ride flat out over that very narrow bridge and you will be OK.

 

You can't actually ride the bike but you did have a bit of a go at a cousin's Christmas party 10 yrs ago.

 

All you have to do to survive is to ride the bike across the narrow bridge with the roar of the heat and the sting of the smoke stoking your panic.

 

Simple really

 

millions ride bikes every day.

 

That's a little of what it's like to venture into cloud without adequate, skills, gear and recency.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Also worth understanding how reliable (or not!) mechanical AH's are, if electrical, or total reliability of vacuum source and mechanical AH if air driven.

 

So its not just a case of following the AH to your point of arrival, but ensuring that what its telling you aligns with what everything else is telling you. When the story is different, which one is right? all this type of thing is covered in IFR training.

 

Andy

 

 

[crazy diamond]

It's not all that "hard" but why do CFIT accidents happen to IFR rated pilots so often? Because they're human, statistics don't lie, the whole 178 seconds to live thing isn't just a ploy to get non rated blokes out of the muck cos it's so much fun being in it, it would be even easier if every airfield in the country and track was at sea level, terrain was non existent and icing was never an issue. It's the old swiss cheese principal, an aeroplane doesn't just decide that in cloud it don't wanna keep flying wings level, factors combine to give the effect, not trusting the instruments (A human factor issue), not knowing where you are (Spatial awareness), not thinking ahead of the aircraft (See previous). On the issue of instrument reliability see an old accident file on a Westwind that went in to Botany Bay in 1985 (ish) think the rego was IWW or something similar, was doing a departure to the south on a moonless night, simulated AH failure, just so happened the captains actual AH DID fail, went inverted and spun in. A Westwind isn't too badly equipped.

 

 

[Mazda]

I've only got just over 40 hours instruments but this might help.

 

Flying in cloud isn't hard but learning to scan correctly takes some time and is tiring. Without training people tend to fixate on one instrument without realising they are neglecting the others. They think they are only looking for a second but it isn't the case. Without constant scanning everything can go haywire very quickly. Spiral dives happen fast. Then with no horizon and in a panic, just about everyong pulls to recover from anything. In a spiral dive that could be disastrous.

 

There are real physiological and psychological issues too. You really can feel like you are climbing vertically and about to stall when you are level. You really can feel like you are banked when you are not.

 

If someone stumbles into cloud VFR maybe their aircraft doesn't have IFR instruments, and instruments do fail too. I remember flying IFR with the AH level and the turn coordinator started to show a turn. The DG showed a heading change. When the turn coordinator was level and heading constant, the AH showed a bank. It does your head in. I tried to ignore the AH bank information but my brain was having problem dealing with it and I kept subconsciously levelling the AH. That's why a scan is so important.

 

Then there are procedural issues. IFR flights are fully separated from other aircraft by ATC, so if you fly VFR in cloud you are not getting this service. In cloud you can't look out for traffic, you can only rely on traffic information from ATC. If you are VFR there's a chance you could run into an IFR aircraft (or another VFR that shouldn't be there).

 

So if anyone that is VFR does end up in cloud, tell ATC so they know you are there and they'll keep other traffic away from you as well as helping you out of the cloud!

 

Maybe ask an IFR pilot or instructor if they can take you into IMC and you can see for yourself?

 

 

[bushpilot]

And, suggest you read this related thread: http://www.recreationalflying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6817

 

 

[Guest disperse]

Read the other 2 stories. I do well understand that if a vfr flys into cloud. the natural outcome semes to to be loss of control..

 

I' just asking If it happened to me and I had made the call and started a climb (height is our frind and the ground is the enemy)

 

I've gotto set a climb path and keep the wings level. making contact with ATC to inform them of the situation and of my intended path......straight out the top!!

 

As far as another plane or something hitting you, theres not a lot more to do...

 

 

[poteroo]

It does beg the question of why some IF training isn't part of the Certificate syllabus. It's easy enough to bring in the attitude instruments as part of the 'performance' indications at quite early stage training. With most trainers now equipped pretty well, this isn't all that hard.

 

As stated earlier - there's a huge psychological barrier when you enter cloud inadvertantly. When conducting GA BFR's it's been my experience that the pilot flies along quite happily 'under-the-hood'.....but if you manoeuvre them into a bit of Cu or Scu, and then take off the hood.....they lose it within a few secs! Why? Maybe it proves that under the hood isn't all that indicative with Day VFR ops?

 

happy days,

 

 

[Deskpilot]

'Part of the syllabus' I think basic spin recovery would be more important than IF training. You can see clouds a long way off and should avoid them. No excuse what-so -ever to enter them. Inadvertent spins can happen any time to anyone. I know this subject has been debated before, but I think it still has relevance to training for safer flying. Either topic comes down to good airmanship, or the lack of it.

 

Them's my thoughts anyhow..

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

Inadvertent spins can happen any time to anyone.

 

Deskpilot - With respect, I have to disagree with you on this point because in my humble opinion it is simply not true.

 

An aeroplane will not spin if flown within the appropriate parameters for normal flight (or if it will, most of us in here should avoid flying that type).

 

Rog

 

 

[blueshed]

Scan!

 

The Scan as it is, both in VFR and IFR is the most important ability to keep you where you need to be.

 

If you are scanning, a Maximium of 3secs away from your horizon (IF or VF) you will not inadvertantly be where you should not be! 1 sec to track from your horizon, 1 sec to check, 1 sec to return to Horizon, then it all starts again. Horizon whether artificial or actual is the key! in both VFR & IFR the horizon is the key visual factor.

 

It is the inner ear which gets upsetwhen you don't keep reasuring it of what is happenning!

 

Geting Deep although very interesting!

 

Desperse, Which reference books do you have, we have started using the Jim Davis book, and are finding it fantastic! Very easy for folks like myself to understand!

 

Excuse me must catch some sleep!

 

Cheers Guy

 

 

[facthunter]

Why so hard?

 

Disperse, I wish you wouldn't have asked that question. The simple fact is that it IS hard. There are lots of things acting against making it the easy process that a cursory examination might lead you to think it might be..

 

1 All your normal sensory inputs are acting against you.(except sight)

 

2. The workload is high, as you must constantly SCAN all relevant instruments. Pilots tend to focus on ONE instrument. This does not work .

 

3. In addition, you must navigate the aircraft to a destination, and make sure that you don't hit hills. Try reading a map while you are flying on instruments in mild turbulence in poor light & in cloud. There is plenty of material out on this. Read it and believe it. It is not a conspiracy to keep the fun for an exclusive group.

 

........ When I was a very young fellow and had about 50 hours up, I got to fly sometimes with a chap who owned his own Piper twin commanche. This chap was the most carefull pilot that I had EVER come across, and I thought ,a good example to all.

 

Some years later, I was astounded to hear that he had flown in cloud, climbing, into a HILL. Oblivion! and He was in my view, the most unlikely person to do something like that. The aeroplane was under control, but not where he thought it was. Nev...

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I only just read the last chapter of the book "Stick and Rudder" recently, which describes what REALLY does happen with the instruments and inexperience of ifr flying.

 

Worth purchasing.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest wildcareratbargara@bigpon]

Have you watched the DVD 'Weather To Fly' put out by CASA. Hubby recieved it as part of Nav's Course. It explains good reasons not to fly in cloud.Hubby just did 2nd solo nav a few days ago, and between low cloud cover and wind coming off them, surrounding mountains, and a strong South Easterly which he wasn't prepared for (Notam only had previous days forecast before he took off), the aircraft was whacked sideways about 45deg. constantly and he had to fight to correct it for over an hour, he started to get disorientated, probably middle ear balance, and radioed base as he was beginning to think he was lost. Luckily a friendly voice reassured him of his position, but he still had almost another hour of shocking flying conditions before flying out into clearer weather (he is used to bad weather flying, with about 6 good hours of the more than 70 he has done), a less than 2 hour flight ended up more than 3 hours with deviations. No matter how hard he tried the Jabbi would not penetrate the low level cloud to enable him to fly above it., and low level flying meant he could not see landmarks, and low cloud around mountains meant the towers couldn't be spotted. He was never so glad to land. Trish

 

 

[Mazda]

Lots of comments above are good.

 

Remember that most pilots don't want to end up unintentionally in cloud! If they do end up in cloud they probably haven't worked out lowest safe altitude and don't know how low they can descend. The cloud may go too high for small aircraft to out climb. It can be bumpy in there too.

 

No one wants to unintentionally spin or spiral dive but experienced pilots have been killed from this. It might only take a bit of panic, physiological factors when you can't tell what is level any more, turbulence (even wake turbulence), and fixation on one instrument even for what feels like a few seconds to end up out of control.

 

There could be ice in there too. Ice builds very fast and airspeed decays at a frightening rate. VFR aircraft don't have a heated pitot either so airspeed indications would not be accurate. I can easily see how VFR pilots in VFR aircraft could end up spinning when in IMC.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Hi Mazda,

 

In general I agree with your comments but one in particular puzzles me.

 

If they do end up in cloud they probably haven't worked out lowest safe altitude and don't know how low they can descend.

All my flying has been in GA so my training has followed the PPL route. All planning for navex's has required looking into (and noting down) the lowest safe altitude for each leg. Is this not taught in the RA syllabus? At the very least it should be taught as part of the cross country endorsement.

 

Note: I would suggest that even if you do know your LSA once you hit cloud you may no longer be on track and therefore the LSA may not be correct for your current location.

 

 

[robinsm]

I think flying in clouds is like driving on country roads at night with the lights off, no problem but watch out for big grey/white/etc rocks with propellers on that are also driving/flying without headlights. (apart from the other problems pointed out. The inside of clouds do not have a real good scenic attraction to me.)

 

 

[Mazda]

Airsick I trained in GA, and there is no requirement at all for day VFR lowest safe. If you can see the hills/obstacles, you won't fly into them.

 

Flying VFR you can quite legally fly well below the calculated IFR or NVFR lowest safe due to the large distance tolerances involved. For example, Centrepoint Tower in Sydney dictates the lowest safe in the Sydney area, but obviously it is not relevant terrain for someone flying day VFR up the lane of entry.

 

Night VFR obviously has a lowest safe requirement because you can't see the terrain.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Apologies Mazda, I wasn't very clear. When I said planning required looking into LSA I didn't mean that it was a 'requirement'. I just meant that as part of the planning process we would work out an altitude at which to fly which meant knowing the minimum safe height for that leg. So if I was to fly into cloud (and I am not planning to!) for at least a few minutes I could be reasonably sure how low I could go if need be.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

All my flying has been in GA so my training has followed the PPL route. All planning for navex's has required looking into (and noting down) the lowest safe altitude for each leg. Is this not taught in the RA syllabus? At the very least it should be taught as part of the cross country endorsement.

And I trained RAA XC and always record LSALT for each planned leg.

 

Let's not make this an "us and them" thing.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Again, apologies. I didn't mean to make this an us and them thing. I am planning on converting over to RA in the not too distant future so I can't be too hard on you lot. :)

 

The point I was trying to make is that the two schools that I have been associated with always insisted on you knowing the LSA. I have thus always assumed this to be the norm and figured it to be standard practice. I just wondered if it was the case with RA training as well.

 

 

[Ultralights]

i think a lot of pilots make flying IFR unnecessarily difficult, during my PPL training many yrs ago, i had to do 10 hrs under the hood, once you get a routine scan up you can maintain it pretty easily, but if something happens to upset what you expect to see from the instruments, such as hitting a bit of turbulence, then you do tend to fixate to try and correct it, My instructor gave my this tip, i have found it invaluable. when in cloud or passing through cloud, remember, the aircraft is designed to be stable! it WILL fly hands off pretty well! if you find you are fixating and over correcting in turbulence, that almost always accompanies passing through cloud, let the aircraft fly itself! let it ride the bumps, obviusly keep an eye on things but and fly with a light touch and let the trim do the work ( if its trimmed straight and level, it will tend to return to trim... straight and level)

 

 

[Guest disperse]

I origanly asked this question, because I was astounded to find out the statistics for survival should you be faced with the choice of ground and cloud..... Prior to this the answer would have been easy GO UP, GO UP ! Clouds aren't safe, but surely survivable. Unless you bounce off another plane.

 

And it appears they are VERY survivable, as long as you know how.

 

If I had gathered no knowledge of spin recovery and inadvertently entered a spin at 4,000 ft .......... I'm a dead man in under 60 sec. Yet should my mate the aerobatic pilot be sitting beside me. I'm laughing and enjoying the adrenalin rush in under 10 sec.

 

CENTER, FORWARD, AND FULL OPPOSITE RUDDER. That's it, that's my total knowledge of embedded spin recovery techniques. But it's better then saying they didn't teach me that on the way to the ground. oh and don't pull up too hard when the spin stops, unless it's the best choice of two bad possibles .....g's and air speed.

 

Now if I'm sitting in a plane that was flown IFR through cloud yesterday... surely in a EMERGENCY SITUATION I should at least be capable of maintaining flight. I might have absolutely no idea where the hell I am (but then again with GPS the way it is today) But surely I can keep it flying until the fuel runs out !!!

 

Yeah I know .... I might hit a mountain (when in doubt GO UP) ..... or God forbid another plane..... But other than that I would like to be able to fly around and around until I can see, or I run out of fuel... Call Atc, if in doubt climb, and hope to hell Atc gets you on radar quickly. So they can tell you where you are and where you need to be going.

 

FLYING INTO CLOUD WITHOUT IFR TRAINING IS NOT A GOOD SAFE THING TO DO !!

 

But a little know how ....... it is very survivable