VFR in CLOUD, why so hard ???

[Guest brentc]

PPL instruments is 2 hours these days - enough to let you know that you shouldn't be in them (the clouds) if you want to stay safe.

 

I agree with the lowest safe comments as most of the time in general flight you wouldn't have calculated it. I know I don't as a general rule and I don't know many people that do.

 

For those of you that are converting to PPL, you can indeed do the instrument time in GA as there is no requirement on aircraft type for the instrument time.

 

 

[Mazda]

Be a bit careful with that spin recovery technique Disperse. It is true that some types may require full forward stick, but if you fly other types and apply full foward stick they'll spin inverted, and forward stick will hold them there. And how do you know which rudder to push?

 

If ever you are not sure - throttle to idle, centralise aileron and elevator, push on the rudder that is closest to you (or harder to push). When the rotation has stopped centralise everything and ease out of the dive. Put on power when the nose climbs up through the horizon. (Hopefully you'll have one).

 

The other good one to know is if you somehow end up part inverted (say from wake turbulence). Do not pull!! Roll to the nearest horizon, then with wings level ease out of the dive.

 

There are some people doing really good EMT training along these lines (like Phil Unicomb who uses the Pitts for this).

 

 

[Ben Longden]

For those of you that are converting to PPL, you can indeed do the instrument time in GA as there is no requirement on aircraft type for the instrument time.

Talking with Mat at Air Shepparton, one hour of this can be done in the sim, and the other hour in any AC that has enough instruments. His advice is to do the cross countries (150Mn flight etc) in your RAA Aircraft, and do the instrument flight in the VH registered one with preferably a full IFR panel such as the 172 or Archer at Shepp.

 

His advice was to not just stop but continue on with night VFR, controlled airspace and consider IFR training even if it is private IFR as these skills will add to the safety of your flying.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest J430]

LSALT...........of course you carry an ERC chart with you.....

 

VFR into IMC should not be done due Noise Abatement!

 

 

[Guest airsick]

His advice was to not just stop but continue on with night VFR, controlled airspace and consider IFR training even if it is private IFR as these skills will add to the safety of your flying.

Of course he would say this. He wants your money!

 

Seriously though, this is exactly the route I am considering (night VFR and PIFR, I already have the controlled airspace bit). With the advent of PIFR I think it is ahcievable and worth while for those who do a lot of flying.

 

Of course none of this helps in RA.

 

 

[Mazda]

The ERC shows IFR LSALTs! Remember that an IFR LSALT can go out 15 degrees right out to 55 miles from your track, with 1000 or 1360ft terrain clearance. Of course this is very safe, but if you are flying in VMC on a good visibility day, there is no reason at all why you can't safely fly well below published IFR LSALTs. The LSALT between Bankstown and Canberra is something like 6,700 ft. If there is solid cloud at 5,000 feet, could you fly there safely VFR?

 

 

[blueshed]

Sceptics

 

"Of course he would say this. He wants your money! "

 

 

Very Scepticle, why do pepole assume this!

 

There are actually instructors who do have your best interests at heart you know!

 

And of course we want your money, we have to eat as well you know!:)

 

Have A Great Day

 

Cheers Guy

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I give you my money, I can't eat, I die. How is that having my best interests at heart?

 

 

[blueshed]

You Win!

 

 

[facthunter]

NVFR & PIFR.

 

If those of you who are likely to do it ( the training). Forget the night VFR and just do the Private IF Rating. CASA ( I believe ) prefer this. I don't believe in the concept of Night VFR and never have, and I'm not alone there.

 

Re LSALT. It's specified on some routes, and you can calculate it.The terrain involved is taken into account with an allowance either side of track for obstacles. It's only relevant if you adhere to the tolerances., and fly the track I agree with Mazda that it has no real relevance to VFR ops. If you applied it, you would never fly in a valley, or close to a cliff, or TV tower etc. In fact at the CASA roadshow where the aircraft under discussion went in near Oberon, SPECIFICALLY the experts said that LSALT had no relevance. The aircraft went from VMC to IMC, and the pilot lost control. (the 178 seconds thing).

 

Disperse, I would question your belief that the safest thing to do is CLIMB. You should aggressively remain in visual conditions, and that sometimes entails quickly losing height, WHILE VISUAL to STAY visual. If you end up in cloud, you will be in deep trouble unless you are trained, in current practice, have suitable instruments and know where you ARE. Nothing that I have said here opposes the obtaining of some training in instrument flying skills, as long as you don't deliberately fly in cloud inappropriately. It may save your life, as it has mine.. Nev..

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I once spoke to a VFR polit who inadvertantly entered IMC. He told the controllers that he would just climb through it. They proceeded to inform him that reportedly (from airline pilots) that the tops were peaking at 60,000ft. He was able to descend slightly, get out of the cloud and land in a paddock. Shortly after the cloud was on the ground where he was. He did $18 damage to the nav light cover when he hit the fence and that was it. Aircraft was flown out safely the next day. Moral of the story is to stay out of the cloud in the first place. Even if you are confident on the instruments, you may have to be in it for a long time which might be rather distressing.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, id have to agree with facthunter...stay out of that soup at all cost's.. ive found myself diving through a hole once with the power at idle and asi winding up.. luckily we didnt get near the red line... was alot safer then continuing along with the holes running out underneath us..

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

the tops were peaking at 60,000ft

 

With respect, I would have to disagree with you in this instance.

 

One would have to wonder where these stories come from. The only cloud that I know of that would have "the tops .... peaking at 60,000ft" would a very large thunderstorm. In that case, it would most likely have chewed the errant pilot and their aeroplane up and spat him/her out in a million bits.

 

Rog

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for the info on the oil heat problems Brent. Looks as though you were on the right wave lengh as Jabiru have posted the mods yesterday. I rang a few minutes ago, wrong time of day to talk to the right person, however I asked them to send the necessary parts that they suggest.

 

Cheers,

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I once spoke to a VFR polit who inadvertantly entered IMC. He told the controllers that he would just climb through it. They proceeded to inform him that reportedly (from airline pilots) that the tops were peaking at 60,000ft.

I find this hard to believe. A cloud that peaked at 60,000ft would no doubt be a towering cumulus otherwise known as - thunderstorm. It think that a thunderstorm this big would have broken his little plane as it sucked him higher and higher. At the very least he would have had significant difficulty getting the nose down and losing height.

 

But I think it is a very good point nonetheless. How thick are the clouds you are attempting to climb through? 60,000ft is probably not the norm but it isn't unusual for clouds to peak at altitudes above oxygen requirements and how many of us carry oxygen?

 

EDIT: That damned Rog beat me...

 

 

[Yenn]

Visibility is not the only problem in cloud. There is also ice to contend with, especially in Southern Australia. Keep out of it and live to die of old age, as I am trying to do.

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Visibility is not the only problem in cloud.

I think Cumulus Granitus has been mentioned, but there's also that famous story of a well known RAAF pilot who decided to do a 180 when he saw a train coming out of a cloud somewhere near Muswellbrook.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Keep out of it and live to die of old age, as I am trying to do.

;)

 

Reminds me of the saying: "There are many bold pilots and there are many old pilots but there aren't many old bold pilots."

 

 

[Ultralights]

Night VFR has its advantages, i had mine quite a few yrs back., there is nothing to compare with flight at sunset and into the evening on a full moon night! i find the best time to do circuits is in the hours before last light, no one else is out, the air is calm, and the views as the city lights are turning on is surreal. though the next upgrade to my PPl will be the PIFR. one day i will get to a doc and get my medical reinstated..

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I find this hard to believe. A cloud that peaked at 60,000ft would no doubt be a towering cumulus otherwise known as - thunderstorm. It think that a thunderstorm this big would have broken his little plane as it sucked him higher and higher. At the very least he would have had significant difficulty getting the nose down and losing height.But I think it is a very good point nonetheless. How thick are the clouds you are attempting to climb through? 60,000ft is probably not the norm but it isn't unusual for clouds to peak at altitudes above oxygen requirements and how many of us carry oxygen?

 

EDIT: That damned Rog beat me...

Thunderstorms, yes, that's correct and one of the reasons why the cloud was on the ground in the first place. Very believable actually. I once fly commercial to Sydney at over 40,000ft in cloud all the way and we were apparently nowhere near the top, so quite common in reality, particularly across the pacific.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

The cloud wasn't the unbelievable bit...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Welcome to "White Knuckle Airlines"

 

Yet another of those 'How did i get here' stories.

 

I knew this guys reputation for taking risks and bending rules but the aircraft was an expierience not to miss so put up with it ,,for a while.

 

Had a great week at Temora at a training camp with a team heading for the world meet. Last two days were at Canberra at the sports institute and sat in on the teams lectures and coaching sessions. The next 3 days were a rest break for the team so headed back to Camden for some maintenance, but we caught up with a line of storms and had to spend an hour on the ground at Goulborn. We head off and start running into low crap at Mittagong obiting around the then being built bypass. After 20 minutes of this ol Cpt Crunch has had enough of waiting and even tho i pointed out a adequate short dirt strip on a property to wait it out, he followed the bypass earthworks around the hill and picked up the start of the freeway. unfortunatly the hill hid the fact that a great thunderstorm was in progress and we dropped lower in the pouring rain to stay visual with the concrete road. Foreward visibility was no more than 300 mts if the trucks and cars had their lights on much less if they did not. Water poured in around the door frames and window screws up thru the floor i felt we were in more danger of sinking than crashing. At least from here to Picton Skydive it was all downhill I had flown from Picton to Mittagong strip a few times in the Thrusters so knew where the overpasses and big wires were. But even i flew down here higher than we were now. Crunch asks if he should turn on the 'auto relight'. I just suggest keeping a hand close to it. i turned off the radio the only new item to be installed on the panel since the airframe was built. There is water coming in thru the firewall, No nav aids just one radio and DI. Just before Pheasants Nest it becomes instant blue sky. whew out the otherside, climb away, lot quieter too. rain like that makes a heap of noise. Wipe the window and look back and the beast must be towering up to 20,000ft a wall of solid CB. slide down the windows to let the humidity out. the exhaust of the Garrett runs really close to both pedal areas (nice in winter) so it starts steaming. Every thing is wet. Even "Black Dog". poor thing. At least i could give the compressor wash a miss.

 

Every time i do a trip with this guy were always playing with cloud on a basic panel. Pretty dodgey operation thru and thru. Wasn't long before he put it in

 

but by then i had had enough of flying around in it.

 

Much safer with the Twin Otters' 'full panel' with two of everything. Flight plan IFR, set the course bar and altitude and push nav on the auto pilot. Easy peasy compared to the scud running/climbing on top method of Crunch's basic 5 and push it to the max way.

 

experiences like this showed that if you do a fair amount of flying around the country you will be regularly finding bad weather usually crossing the ranges. The more it happens the more you push it accepting worse conditions every time, you either pop out the other side or hit something. Recreational Aircraft and pilots will sooner or later be IFR rated from the simple fact that pilots will keep pushing it without the ratings and it may be the only way to stop the accidents.

 

 

 

 

[Ultralights]

if that was me, i would be checking the powerline status crossing that dirt runway, opps driveway in the second pic.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Your photo reminded me of some of mine.

 

Needless to say that I didn't make it to the flyin on that day!

 

 

 

 

[blueshed]

Facthunter

 

Nev

 

What is the deal with PIFR, are you alowed to use this in daylight hours only or can it be used at night?

 

If you can use it at night, do you then need a NVFR so you can do a circuit and land? as I believe the PIFR is only for enroute and not for approaches, please correct me if I am wrong!

 

If anyone is doing IF training ,it is best done in IF conditions if at all possible, as simulated conditions are as it says, "Simulated". If IF conditions are not available then the darkest of dark nights way out in the sticks, nowhere near a city would be a great way of making you use your instruments! Really good for no visual Horizon and very scary above 500' agl!

 

Keep it Visual

 

Cheers Guy:;)3: