VFR in CLOUD, why so hard ???

[IanR]

The basic PIFR is for enroute but you can then add modules on for departures and various approaches.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

You would still be under IFR rules even if you are visual at the beginning and end of the flight.

 

Eg. I depart Essendon PIFR, zoom along, hit some cloud for an hour, end up clear of cloud and descend into Bankstown, so I'm still IFR.

 

The main reason why you need a NVFR rating on top of IFR / PIFR is because if your IFR renewal is due and has expired you can't legally fly at night. The NVFR rating lasts forever as long as you fly NVFR every 90 days whereas IFR expires.

 

There is talk in the industry of removing the regular IFR renewals as they have in the US.

 

People have suggest to me that by the time you add all of the approaches for PIFR that you may as well do the whole thing, but from memory PIFR has lesser renewal requirements?

 

 

[Mazda]

It is quite believable that huge towering Cbs would be embedded in other clouds. Even if the estimates were wrong and the clouds "only" went to 30,000 ft, or even "only" 20,000 ft, we'd be in trouble. Plus as said earlier, VFR aircraft are not equipped to handle icing. Airspeed would decay, lift would reduce, weight would increase, pitot would be clogged - not a good combination.

 

The PIFR is now quite flexible because you can add on approaches. You can start off just being able to climb through cloud, and at any time you can add on extra "bits" to it. There's a CAAP on it somewhere. You don't need to do the IREX exam for the PIFR.

 

I've actually done the Command Instrument Rating training. I just need a 4 more night command hours and I'm there. I know the Command Instrument rating does cover you for NVFR, I can't remember if the PIFR (or variations of the PIFR) cover this. Perhaps there is a night add on?

 

I did the NVFR training but never did the test - long story, couldn't find an ATO to test my instructor who was doing his approval test at the same time. Anyway, if you do an instrument rating it isn't necessary. NVFR training I found frustrating. Late nights after work and countless cancellations due weather after driving to the airport after last light. At least the IFR training is more likely to happen when you do night flights.

 

For a command instrument rating you can do a fair bit of the flying in the sim. I did some in the sim but most of it in flight - some under the hood, some in real IMC, some by day, some by night. The dark night IFR flights under the hood and in IMC were the ones where all the sensory illusions were most pronounced. Very tiring!

 

 

[Mazda]

That's right, a PIFR has no actual recency requirement, and if you do a command instrument rating you can be signed off for a PIFR at the same time. Currently an IFR needs a renewal every 12 months but doesn't need an "initial" until 2 years, so some private pilots just do a renewal every 2 years and use the PIFR for the second year.

 

Yes, there is a move to go to the US requirements which would be great. They have no renewals at all, no specific instruments marked on the rating, 6 approaches every 6 months for recency, and no special multi-engine category.

 

Actually, they don't have a night rating either for PPL. Their PPLs all have some night training to get their PPL (something like 3 hours dual?) and can then fly day or night. Personally I think this is way more sensible as all pilots hae some night experience and won't end up having to land in a paddock if last light is approaching (as someone had to do at Yass not so long ago). Plus we don't all have to fork out all that extra money on night ratings!

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

There is no way of getting from LSALT to the circling area without VFR.

 

Not so!

 

Hey Guys, how about we make a pact to not post in this forum unless we actually know what we are talking about? To do otherwise is a huge disservice to those genuinely seeking information/knowledge.

 

Night VFR should not be confused with IFR at night.

 

Lets assume that the pilot has a Command Instrument Rating or a Private Pilot Instrument Rating with full approvals (to have anything less is, in my opinion, courting disaster). The pilot would then be conducting the flight on an IFR flightplan, under the Instrument Flight Rules.

 

An aircraft operating under the IFR by night having a MTOW not greater than 5700 kg may be planned to a destination not served by a radio navigation aid or not having an approved instrument approach procedure, subject to the following requirements:

 

a. sufficient fuel must be carried to permit flight to an alternate aerodrome meeting all the requirements specified in .......

 

b. the aircraft must be able to be navigated to the destination, then, if necessary, to the alternate aerodrome .........

 

c. descent below LSALT for the route sector to be flown must not be commenced until the aircraft is positively fixed within 3 NM of the destination aerodrome and the aerodrome lighting has been visually identified. Subsequent maneuvering for descent and landing must be in VMC and confined within 3 NM of the destination aerodrome while operating below the LSALT;

 

d. the pilot is responsible for ensuring that he or she is familiar with all terrain and obstacles surrounding the aerodrome within the specified circling area of 3 NM and the aircraft is maneuvered for landing at a height sufficient to maintain the obstacle clearance specified for circling (ie 300 ft for Cat A and B aircraft)

 

e. aerodrome lighting must comply with .......

 

While there is a requirement to remain in VMC, if you hold the appropriate IR and are operating on an IFR flightplan under the Instrument Flight Rules, you ARE NOT required to hold a Ngt VFR rating.

 

Do not confuse VMC with VFR!

 

Pilots operating under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) must remain in VMC at all times, while pilots operating under the Instrument Flight Rules may be in VMC or IMC.

 

Rog

 

 

[Guest disperse]

You all lost me when the conversation turned to what you can and cannot do within GA ....

 

BUT I got a lot of GOOD advice ...... ie: I'm much better off finding a good paddock then taking my chances in a cloud ..... even if I can keep it flying ...... I'm not going to 20,000ft... which is good cause I get sick if I look out the window of a 737 in cloud.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Thanks RogerRammer, like I said, NVFR is great for when your IFR has expired or ferry flights etc when you need to get the aircraft home but can't be bothered or don't want or need to go to the expense and effort of IFR.

 

 

[Mazda]

I don't have a problem with the standard PIFR, it could save lots of lives. In Sydney it is common to have VMC here but have a layer of cloud over the mountains, with clear skies on the far side (perhaps past Bathurst). If you are flying to somewhere like Narromine, you can't go VFR (or some people get caught out). A PIFR allows people to fly through that layer of cloud and cruise on top. The cloud would be long gone by the time they got to Narromine. Adding approaches is great too and can be added on when people have the money for extra training.

 

I think it is better to have a PIFR than nothing, and lots of people don't want to do the full instrument rating either due to the IREX or because the training is so expensive.

 

 

[IanR]

Hey Guys, how about we make a pact to not post in this forum unless we actually know what we are talking about? To do otherwise is a huge disservice to those genuinely seeking information/knowledge.

Rog

Rog, you are of course correct and I have deleted my post. After checking my books (which I said I intended to) I remembered what the issue was with night and PIFR - you are not allowed to fly at night at all with the basic PIFR. It is an FPA which can be added either later or in the initial test if done at night.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

you are not allowed to fly at night at all with the basic PIFR. It is an FPA which can be added either later or in the initial test if done at night.

100 per cent spot on. :)

 

From the CAO's Section 40.2.3:

 

4 What are the limits of a grade of the PIFR rating?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4.1 A grade of the PIFR rating referred to in subsection 3 is subject to the

 

 

 

following limitations:

 

 

 

 

 



(a) the holder may only fly a single-pilot aircraft with a maximum take-off

 

 

 

 

 



weight of 5 700 kg or less;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(b) unless otherwise authorised under subparagraph © the holder may:

 

(i) take off only during day time in VMC; and

 

 

 

 

 

 

(ii) fly below LSALT during departure and arrival only if the aircraft is clear of cloud and flight visibility is at least 5000 metres;

 

© the holder may fly the aircraft to the extent only that the holder is authorised to do so by a FPA entered in the holder’s personal log book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is an FPA (flight procedure authorisation) for night that allows the pilot:

 

To fly at night to the same extent as the person is authorised to do during daytime under the other authorisations held by the person

 

 

(Also from the same CAO)

Cheers,

 

Mick.

 

 

[facthunter]

Apologies.

 

To Blueshed, I was asked a question back there. I went to a new security system on my computer, and I've only just managed to get reliably on line today. I apologise for not responding. This thread has progressed somewhat but I may add a few points. My concern is with the whole concept of being to see your way around at night. Early in the piece, I was about to do a session of night training. The CFI sent me up (solo) to "check out the circuit", prior to starting the evenings training. The place where the training was to be carried out was West Maitland, known as Rutherford. There was very little settlement around the aerodrome in those days (1964) and it was a moonless night. The area was as dark as the inside of a cow's guts. literally.

 

At 500' on turning crosswind, I entered thick fog. I could just see the light from the nav. lights at the wingtips. I carried out a TIMED circuit on instruments, and fortunately broke out at 400' AGL on final. The night's flying was cancelled. I subsequently felt that if that could happen, when you had watched the sun set as you put out the flares, and had a forecast and local knowledge, it could easily occur at other destinations. To be usefull the rating needs to include the ability to carry out approaches. It's a quantum leap from VFR to any of this, and only of academic interest to RAAus pilots. The real emphasis is to stay VISUAL, or do the proper training . Nev ...

 

 

[Mazda]

This might be of interest - 178 seconds to live. From CASA.

 

 

 

[Admin]

Are my stars for today telling me to stay VFR

 

Clouds of illusion may be situated between you and the open sky, yet you could convince yourself that you still can see the stars. Be careful, for it's likely you are perceiving what's inside your mind and not what's actually out there. It's empowering to get in touch with your inner visions as long as you don't confuse them with reality. Let your thoughts lift you into the heavens, but don't lose sight of the ground. By Rick Levine

 

Sunday, February 10, 2008

 

 

[Guest airsick]

"You could make most anything seem better than it really is today, for your natural ability to communicate is being augmented by your idealistic vision of what's possible. But this isn't about communicating details, as the focus is on theory and not practice. Nevertheless, make certain that what you are saying is true or you might mislead yourself as well as everyone else."

 

Sounds like I might be able to convince my self the sun is shining too. When I look outside though it is shining so no need for convincing. Or is it really shining after all? :confused: