Guest Jake.f Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 This could get rather interesting..... http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/aviation-watchdog-grounds-tiger-airways-20110702-1gvny.html
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Well if they are not interested in safely maintaining there aircraft to Aussie standards, then they deserve to be grounded !............................
.Evan. Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Apparently it was the pilots as well. 500 feet below assigned IFR approach height. Twice!
Gnarly Gnu Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Can CASA be grounded ineptitude also? They are good at shutting down airlines, can't think of another area they excel at....
Exadios Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Had to happen. The trajectory of the industry is towards less safe but cheaper operations.
winsor68 Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Had to happen. The trajectory of the industry is towards less safe but cheaper operations. Don't allow what Tiger and the Qantas group of airlines do tarnish the overall view of Airline Safety in Australia...
Exadios Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Don't allow what Tiger and the Qantas group of airlines do tarnish the overall view of Airline Safety in Australia... The thing is that Qantas and Tiger do what they do because there is some competative advantage to do so (grounding excepted). So others are forced to follow to a greater or lesser extent.
Spin Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Glad to see the usual cheap shots haven't been forgotten. I must say I also looked on this one in a slightly different light when I saw that the supposed final straw was 2 minimum altitude busts:contract:. Sadly my level of trust in CASA is sufficiently low for me to wonder whether Tiger pilots are that bad/fatigued/inexperienced, or whether they, as the smallest of the mainline operators is the easy target "proving" that CASA are doing their job? I don't pretend to know the answers, but my sympathy to affected employees and the travelling public. Incidently good for Virgin and Jetstar for putting on extra flights AND special deals to accomodate the stranded.
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 I do see where your coming from Spin, however busting instrument levels by 500ft twice does not show good competency by crew, and yes everyday people like you and I always suffer by these things .........................................................................Maj...
Powerin Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Apparently it was the pilots as well. 500 feet below assigned IFR approach height. Twice! With the level of automation in Airbuses I'm surprised it's possible to breach altitudes without alarms going off everywhere. Wouldn't they still be on autopilot 15km out? EDIT: ah, I got the 15km from another article, the above article says the breach was on a go around. Makes more sense.
Spin Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 I took an amble across to the prune to see what the supposed professionals had to say about it and it seems it isn't a simple matter of them descending beyond where they should have been at a given distance. In the case of the latest incident at least, they had carried out a missed approach and were doing a visual teardrop onto the reciprocal runway (tail wind was over minima on the ILS) There is no clear consensus that the crew were not in fact entitled to do what they did, which was climbing to 2,500 instead of 3,000 whilst circling back, which may in certain circumstances have been acceptable. That said; it seems from comments made that there has been a pattern of cutting limits to the bone, somehow getting into airports when other crew with equally well equipped aircraft diverted etc, no doubt motivated by punitive management pressures, so it isn't merely a case of 2 (technical) strikes and you're out. Interestingly it is alleged that CASA are investigating similar cases against QF and JQ - pity the crew that end up in the wringer, but I have no issue with them tightening up safety in general terms.
Gnarly Gnu Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Interestingly it is alleged that CASA are investigating similar cases against QF and JQ Oh, they wouldn't shut them down of course, they are nice airlines that do the right thing by CASA. Only the foreigners give trouble and undercut the nice airlines prices. Well there is a $ilver lining for the nice airline Qantas anyway, the strike action has been averted for now, this is good going into school holidays and all. Worth a box of chocs at least.
kaz3g Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Interesting it happened just after the Senate inquiry... kaz
Ben Longden Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Anyone know what the real story here is? It has to be more than the two below LSALT issues....
Guest Jake.f Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Supposedly it was many more minor safety issues over a longer period of time...
Powerin Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 From what I've read I think CASA's opinion is that the minor issues all point to their major allegation of poor pilot training. That and the fact that Tiger management have been thumbing their noses at CASA for a while. So they are getting taught a lesson amongst other things.
Guest Jake.f Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I don't agree with the attacking of all Tiger pilots for being under qualified, once you take into account fatigue and such I'm sure the majority are perfectly qualified
Guest ozzie Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Tiger should never had been allowed to start up in the first place. They have always come across as dodgey. Remember the TV show about 18 months ago that featured Tiger Airlines? Never an episode without peeved off passsengers not getting to their destination. Ozzie
winsor68 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I would hate to trash the Tiger pilots outright... all pilots make mistakes and a similar google search of these incidents in Australia would perhaps surprise many. I believe that Tiger has some very experienced pilots... I think the reasons for Casa's actions are deeper than just pilot issues and more to do with the operations of the business as a whole.
Exadios Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Tiger finally pulls ticket sales. Looks like this is not going to go away for Tiger any time soon.
winsor68 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Unless they have a major relaunch they are gone, gone, gone... lets hope those loosing their jobs are able to find other employment.
Guest Jake.f Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 I think now it is inevitable we see the disappearance of tiger from our skies, unless they totally relaunch with a different branding altogether to shake the now tarnished image tiger has attached to it.
winsor68 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Lets not get too down on our fellow pilots... It appears to me that there is only a couple of airlines in Australia (I won't name them...) that are not using overseas crews in a way that is border line legal with CASA and way outside Australian working conditions. Obviously it is wrong but lets not forget that all Australian Airlines employ predominantly Australian crews... and good ones at that too. I can tell you that from my experience... I watched a few episodes of the Airways TV show featuring Tiger that aired a while ago... and it was obvious that as ineffective as their ground staff were that the problem was no support from within the company... no proper training.... no proper planning I work with some ex-Tiger employees... people that got their introduction to Airline Ground Work through Tiger locally... and with the proper training they are very capable... but Tiger never provided it. They literally threw these people in the deep end... gave them a few hours training and then sent an aircraft up. Their ground staff numbers are half what any of the other airlines run with... and as such their operations department must be a complete mess. The local Tiger staff here have put in a stirling effort and thankfully for most of them there is a good chance of continued employment as their company handles other airlines as well. I spoke to one experienced staff member who said he was glad to see them gone because they weren't up to it operationally. So keep in mind that the Aircrews had this to deal with in all of this...
Guest Jake.f Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 I think that the main issue with Tiger is the management, not the staff.
facthunter Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 As a general principle, Management have to accept the blame. They manage the airline, pick the staff, determine all standards ultimately. The rules pilots operate to are much the same around the world. There may at times be more pressure felt by some to "get there". I still like to keep an open mind on this as a lot of these things can become very political. There is also the accusation by some that to get rid of a cost cutting competitor may be good for Qantas. I hope that is not a factor here. This has been simmering for a while. Incidently anything technical written in the papers can mostly be ignored . You would be well advised to put little stock on it, unless it is written by an accepted aviation independent expert.. Nev
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