QANTAS Looking to India for Pilots

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I would caution against an Australian approach which can be summed up as "If its from, or is Indian, its substandard." There are a number of Indian IT people working where I do that are as good, or better than what is available from Australian recruiters. If I had to generalise the only point I would make is that they tend not to be forceful when opposing bad ideas.....Never sure if thats culture, or politeness related to the fact that they arent in their own backyard.

 

My local Dr is Indian and I chose him over other alternates based on healthcare proffesionals feedback.

 

The point of this rambling.... Im as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that there are Indian pilots with the same skillsets that the best of our pilots have. Im equally sure that like Australia there will be duds. It doesnt necessarily follow that any Indian pilots operating in Australia will naturally be of the latter group!

 

We dont like it when others group us all together with an inference that theose Ultralight folk are temporary Australians at best, because we know that there are very skilled operators and those at the other end of teh spectrum, in otherwords we are a diverse group, so why is it then Ok to do the same to an entire nationality, one that in this case is fully nuclear capable and has a space program way in advance of where we got to when Woomera went back to being a remote place in the middle of nowhere... I make no claims as to whether each of these is actually a good thing, but its worth remembering.

 

Andy

 

 

[Kleiny]

And I thought it was India that always wanted us Aussie Pilots!

 

 

[Litespeed]

It's a sad state of affairs that with my nearly 1000 hrs, I have been told by 2 airlines in Oz, that I am to experienced to be considered.

It is that very experience that they do not want- you are no longer able to be trained as a Robot. And you are used to getting a wage and expect one.

 

 

[Paul Turner]

I won't be flying Qantas if they don't have real pilots, ie white anglo saxons who speak english. I am not racist...

Really??? So if this was meant to be a joke, or even better satirical comment, then can I suggest you make it a little more obvous. Perhaps the ever-useful 'lol' immediately after the racial slur would help. If it wasn't meant to be a joke then I'm not sure how "I'm not racist" could possibly be expected to counter the earlier statement. I actually don't know what you could have possibly said that would be more racist or offensive.

 

So, while I sit and wait to be flamed by the vocal minority, I'll try to decide which is worse:

 

• the original comment,
   
   
  
• the fact that this is meant to be a 'moderated site' that appears to condone this sort of statement, or
   
   
  
• that the no one else on the site bothered to complain about the comment (is this truely representative of the views of the majority of this forum?)
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[naremman]

The management of Qantas are bean counters all they are concerned with is the share price & profit $$$$$$

Said mangement have not being doing us too many favours on the the share price front. As one of the clowns who voted "nay" to the $6 sellout, I attempt to avert my glance away from QAN share price today!!

 

 

[Thx1137]

Obviously if the pilots are competent it doesn't matter where they are from but I don't like companies that tout being proud Australians that then go an funnel increasing amounts of money and work overseas. I guess it might be considered "good" for the passengers if it keeps prices down but how many times have we seen our companies cut costs then use much of the "savings" to fund bonuses! (I thought they got paid for doing their job but obviously must be mistaken)

 

Many of us are happy to pay extra if we get better service or products but it seems costs only ever go up and services/product quality only ever goes down (generalizing here of course). I think thats why Apple is so popular these days. A little expensive compared to some but the products do the job, are reasonable quality and have some sense of innovation instead of stagnation.

 

 

[jerrajerra]

Qantas is hardly Australian these days anyway. For my domestic routes I always chose to fly Qantas only becuase for the a) bag transfers are easy between same carrier at domestic airports; b) price of airfare is usualy same as other carriers except you get FF poionts, meals, alcohol included depending on route. Customer service? Doesn't exist.

 

Would I support an airline paying its experienced Captain a half million dollar salary plus all the First Class family flights benefits and whatever....? Nope.

 

Would I support an airline paying its experienced Captain a reasonably good but not excessive salary? Yep.

 

Would I support an airline whos fares from the West coast to the East coast cost just $5 bucks? Nope, but there would be many that wouldnt hesitate.

 

I used to pay around $1300 return from my current location to Perth then Melb; since other carriers came on board thet price was reduced to around $900.

 

Wish I could say get stuffed Qantarse but these days that wouldnt work in my favour unless I was just flying direct to Perth then Id go with another carrier.

 

Chris

 

 

[Ultralights]

Would I support an airline paying its experienced Captain a half million dollar salary plus all the First Class family flights benefits and whatever....?

where on earth, well, above it, would you find a Commercial airline pilot on this kind of money? the best and most qualified would be lucky to get HALF that! Dont believe the Qantas Spin. even i, as a lowly AME had first class staff travel rights, if i could afford it! not only that, in my 11 yrs at the big red rat, not ONCE did Qantas negotiate in good faith, every promise made was never delivered upon.. dont forget the $30 Million in fines for their international Freight cartels! not once, but TWICE! i started as an apprentice, after my trade, i started on $32Kpa. after 11 Yrs, i had NO training offered. but countless courses promised, and was only earning $35KPa when i left. after 11 yrs. love those 1% pay rises every year regardless of CPI index. every EBA for those 11 yrs, my job was threatened directly. its no co-incidence that the share price has dropped from $6 to almost $1, not to mention the massive shrinking of their routes. just how do they keep making profits when they have not seen an increase in revenues for 4 yrs? there is a reason QF do not offer "service" anymore.

 

 

[ossie]

where on earth, well, above it, would you find a Commercial airline pilot on this kind of money? the best and most qualified would be lucky to get HALF that! Dont believe the Qantas Spin. even i, as a lowly AME had first class staff travel rights, if i could afford it! not only that, in my 11 yrs at the big red rat, not ONCE did Qantas negotiate in good faith, every promise made was never delivered upon.. dont forget the $30 Million in fines for their international Freight cartels! not once, but TWICE! i started as an apprentice, after my trade, i started on $32Kpa. after 11 Yrs, i had NO training offered. but countless courses promised, and was only earning $35KPa when i left. after 11 yrs. love those 1% pay rises every year regardless of CPI index. every EBA for those 11 yrs, my job was threatened directly. its no co-incidence that the share price has dropped from $6 to almost $1, not to mention the massive shrinking of their routes. just how do they keep making profits when they have not seen an increase in revenues for 4 yrs? there is a reason QF do not offer "service" anymore.

Interesting that the list of disgruntly QF/ex QF employees is steadily growing..!!

 

Can assure you that quite a number of QF skippers are on over 400K per year, taking into account allowances for both flying and other duties.

 

Is that excessive..??......the beancounters think so, and so does joe public, right up until the time they plonk their a$$ in a jet.

 

Have never been able to work out why so many that work for the airline are 'biting the hand that feeds them' ..!!

 

The clever ones had seen, early in their careers, that opportunities are abound if one only looks, whether it's flying or a ground job. Ones that I know, and have worked with, are either still with QF earning good coin, or have moved on to other carriers earning even better coin......

 

If it's loyalty you're on about, mate, that went out the window years ago....some know that, and positioned themselves accordingly.

 

Anyway, back to the topic...has anyone seen the ICAO investigations on the number of fake licenses in the sub-continent. There are suggestions that it could be in excess of 4000. A few have been caught but investigations are continuing, or so it seems.

 

 

[David F]

There was the 737 pilot who could not land the aircraft (daddy bought her ticket)

 

 

[Downunder]

Australians are well regarded in industries overseas because of their frankness. We say it as we see it.

 

My concern with asian/Indian pilots is their cultural sensitivites, for want of a better discription.

 

I am involved via business and family with a couple of asian countries. The people from one country find it difficult to say "NO". It is considered rude. So in answer to a question, they will answer "yes" or give other vague statements.

 

I also find asians very indicisive and wanting to "go with the flow". This comes, I think, from a close knit family/community where you need to fit in to survive.

 

The Australian instructors need to really understand their students "cultural habits" to fully train them.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Well lets just hope that the 2 indian pilots in a 172 who flew under my mates trike a few years back while he was on late final (About 60ft up) arent in command of a passenger carrying flight.

 

Not only did they do that they didnt make one single radio call at all even from 10 miles out.

 

When challengened on what they had just done the reply was "what is the problem" we see no problem.

 

Glad it wasnt me i'd probably still be in jail from the flogging i would have given them both.

 

Enchala (gods will) if it is to happen it will they believe.

 

And yes this was reported to the authorities and a little like the government of these days not much has been done about it.

 

Be concerned be very concerned.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

And no I am not one bit racist at all.

 

I have a very good Indian friend and pilot also.

 

I have worked in India and know a little about the culture and way of thinking.

 

Alf

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't know of any australian pilots working as pilots in India. There are many who work/worked in many other places. Saudia turkey holland ireland USA indonesia, hong kong malaysia singapore,to name a few. There are a lot of factors concerning pilot training that should raise concerns.

 

I checked up on the multi-crew licence and it is not happening yet. ( I checked with one sim instructor for an aus airline), but it is out there.

 

Today you are expected to get your own endorsement ( aircraft type) so people shop around and get what suits them. If you go from one airline to another on the same type you will find that most companies have different features on the planes they order. In fact you will often find one airline flying many variants of the same model on line. The Ops manuals vary from airline to airline, considerably.

 

When an Airline controls the source of training , they can tailor the course to suit their standards/ methods, so you have some control of the quality and you get a report on the performance of each pilot .

 

The system in India at the moment is rife with fake documents for pilot qualifications.

 

I think it is a discrace that Qantas ( IF it is ) would get pilots from India ( or any overseas place ) for the sole purpose of saving money. The airlines do NOTHING to aid pilot training in australia.

 

There is going to be a great shortage of pilots all over the world. China and India are two of the areas where this is particularly true. They need all they can train.

 

The cultural factor (as has been mentioned here) IS a significant thing in the reason why australia has a good safety record, in aviation.

 

The crew speak up and let the Captain know if they aren't happy. In many countries they have not done this because of the " show respect to authority" culture.

 

Australia has been very slack in training it's own people for its own needs. We use doctors from Nigeria, Sudan India. Nothing against these guys personally, but aren't they needed in their own country more than here?. In many case their own country paid for the training and I know many ( Sudanese, particularly) left, because of religeous persecution. ( so I understand that).

 

Qantas has a duty to employ people like ultralights, and any other suitable person who has worked their way up through the system in THIS country, which (like NZ) punched way above its weight in it's aviation achievements, in the past.. Nev

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

I don't know of any australian pilots working as pilots in India.

I know of only one, Nev. He's a Captain on 737s for them, and he is unsure of how long they'll need/keep him. We were expecting him home this year, but the Indians keep extending his contract for him.

 

Keep the sunny side up,

 

Wayne.

 

 

[jerrajerra]

Wrote this in haste so hope it makes sense.

 

Many Master Mariners of Indian and Sri Lankan decent depart their seaward ways to work in Australia as draft surveyors. This is the case here where I currently reside. They do a great job, long hours, shitty hours, little rest and so on. Biggest reason why they change sides is because of better conditions and opportunities. The companies that employ them do so happily as it is very difficult to attract Australian men and women to the industry. The employment conditions and salary etc are no different as to whether they're black or white. The difference with ex-Master Mariners working for Australian companies in this sector is that they have the experience...years of experience.

 

I can understand why Qantas would want to go off-shore to recruit pilots if it means paying them less than their Australian counterparts and increasing the profit margin (afterall Qantas is a profit making ASX listed company, not a charity); but I don't agree with bringing in Indian blokes with little domestic experience or marginal international route exposure. Actually I don't agree with employing any Indian national in our airline estaiblishments. As previously posted by other members - to open to coruption, fraud, lack of experience etc etc back at home. The other side I can understand...pilots have not had/ever had real decent salaries during their training or early years on the job (unless you were with Ansett) so there'd be an argument to pay them a higher salary (within reason) now to make up for the years of living out of a suitcase and a hundred thousand dollar training/educational bill.

 

Making sense?...hmmm, dunno

 

Chris

 

 

[J170 Owner]

It won't be long before pilotless planes are flying about, being controlled from the ground (by Indians?). I know (working in the field) that there are several designs on the drawing board and I was there when the GlobalHawk landed at Edinburgh a few years ago.

 

 

[facthunter]

Good in theory, but don't expect it to happen in your lifetime. No computer programmer has ever been able to anticipate ALL possible outcomes in the air. The human brain is still a powerfull tool . i can't imagine 500 + people putting their trust in somebody on the ground to make all the decisions necessary to act in their best interests in a real life situation. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree, I've just finished reading to book "Area 51" which covers among other things the history of UAV aircraft. It started decades ago, and the sophistication required just to keep one in the air involves a lot of people from the control area to the area where the aircraft is. A pilot is cheaper, so guess what the airlines would want.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It won't be long before pilotless planes are flying about, being controlled from the ground (by Indians?). I know (working in the field) that there are several designs on the drawing board and I was there when the GlobalHawk landed at Edinburgh a few years ago.

as was i. did you hear the story of how close they came to loosing it when the disel generators that powered the controlling atco huts ran out of diesel and had to be refueled and injectors bled before power was restored. I was told that GH had executed its OMG I've lost control and was on the way out to sea as part of its final autonomous instructions.

 

I agree with Nev, for no other reason than what will passengers think if their pilot isnt onboard. I think its likely that human nature will draw the conclussion that in the event of something going wrong the onboard pilot has as much to loose as they do if he doesnt do everything possible whereas the ground based pilot doesnt have as much to loose. also an onboard pilot can only be asked to fly his own plane whereas a ground based controller might in time be asked to manage multiple aircraft.

 

andy

 

 

[Tomo]

There's often a UAV Notam for Watt's Bridge. Yellow and white I think, in colour. Quite a strange looking aircraft.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You never know who it might be Tomo.

 

In one of the jobs I do, I need aerial views, and I have access to a camera system which provides direct overheads with very fine detail, but needed to see contours, so I set up and RC aircraft. It wasn't complicated because it wasn't over horizon, but there was a problem finding take off and landing sites in the urban area, and I was restricted by proximity with official RC sites etc, so I decided to try short range camera mounted helicopter control.

 

Got my expertise up to where I could reasonably control it but suddenly learnt all about helicopters susceptibility to strong winds when it was carried out over our dam, and in spite of maximum power and a lot of forward tilt, stayed out there until it drifted out of range and dropped like a rock into the dam. Finally found it after going out a night in the boat with a spotlight.