David Isaac Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 I don't think so LS, Fair Work Australia is not indicating that by their 2 am decision ordering full termination of Industrial Action against Qantas. Tubz, they also ordered Qantas back in the sky; the unions did not shut down Qantas, it was Qantas that pulled the plug. I see the order a significant smack for all parties.
Ultralights Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 From a Qantas Pilot, seams pretty accurate description of past events.. If you can sit back and look what Joyce has done, it has to rank as one of the smartest industrial moves anywhere in the world. You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist. - You don't have to agree with what he is doing, that is another thing.Lets look at what he has done. .... He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. He is in breach of so many laws he could be put in behind bars for a long time..... Well not really. He grounded the airline. - yep he can do that anytime, he is the CEO. And he scared the government / workers / unions that he had a result BEFORE he locked out a single worker. Yep no one was ever locked out. so he was not in breach of the law. Kudos to Alan He has killed the governments IR laws in 48 hours. Yep what Abbot has been trying to do for so long, Alan has done in just 48 hours. Now all you have to do to ban your employees from doing anything is to lock them out over the weekend. Kudos for Alan He has killed any hope of Gillard ever getting back in. Wondered why he told the media that he gave the prime minister 3 hours to respond to a phone call? (Well he didn't do that OW told the media that, so Alan has a fall girl.) He did that to throw fuel on the fire. The ALP is going down. What do you do to get political favours from the new government? You throw kids overboard, or give the PM 3 hours to answer a phone call when she is hosting the heads of state, and has no time to consult with her advisors and obtain legal advice. The phone message was probably something like "Hi, call AJ it is really important." Not if I don't get a response in 3 hours I am shutting down the Australian air network. So just how much will Abbot owe Joyce for humiliating Gillard in front of the world leaders? So in 48 hours he has removed any possibility of strikes, work to rule, PA's. He has killed the governments IR laws - no more PIA. He has deeply wounded Gillard. So the mileage he will get with the new government will enable him to do anything with the airline. Expect 1: 50 flight attendants to Pax (like NZ and the US) Expect softening of the QF sales act. Expect modified flight and duty times. Yep it was a brilliant move. He has out smarted all of the unions and the government. I just wish he was working for the good of the company........
Gnarly Gnu Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. Tell me someone so dense can't be an airline pilot surely? On the plus side at least he figured out who won and who lost....
kgwilson Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 I agree with the Qantas pilots assessment, UL. What AJ has been doing by stealth up until recently (Jetstar and the propping and swapping, Jetconnect and its lower than AUD costings etc) was not happening fast enough for his vision of where he wants Qantas to be on the World Stage. An iconic Australian brand and the "Our Airline" pride it brings to Australians offshore when they see that flying Kangaroo doesn't even figure in his psyche. It's just raw ambition and of course the odd few million in bonuses when everything around him is apparently turning to custard. So he brought it to a head and won. Tactically brilliant and made the unions and government look like complete incompetents. I may not agree with what has happened or with the tactics but what he has achieved takes huge balls plus the unwavering support of the board
winsor68 Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 It doesn't take "huge balls"... it takes a significant degree of immorality... it has more to do with being an Axxxhole. This is not a deed that should see any admiration... this man is quite prepared to damage the Australian Economy and ruin the reputation of Australian Aviation to make more money for a group of nameless investors at the expense of his workforce... This man needs to be ejected from the country.
fly_tornado Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Unfortunately, there is no justice in Australia for ordinary people. I read this week that a guy spent $60,000 to contest a speeding ticket. What kind of country have we become where it costs a years wages to seek justice on something so trivial as a speeding ticket?
facthunter Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 It's not over yet by a long shot, but the manipulators will have to keep a lot under wraps and I trust that won't happen. There has to be a part for truth and honesty in out lifestyle or it's not woth it. The fact is that belonging to a union is legal and 3rd world countries are getting there and we will meet them on the way down, as they are coming up. Unions and management should modernise and get on with it. In Germany, workers reps are on the board and Germany leads europe. All this BS comes from USA where hatred of organised labour is entrenched. To operate a business without any union present is the dream of conservative parties and Managers without the necessary skills or inclination to be bothered. The result:- A bigger gap between rich and poor than ever. ( Look at India China and the USA) and obvious social unrest as a consequence. The corruption of the capitalist system that deprived the ordinary citizen of a lot of his savings in the GFC. ( manifested in places like Wall St, where people see mountains of money going past and just can't keep their hands off it) only serves to make people look for other systems. ( AS they are doing around the world NOW) AND Where people pay themselves amounts of money that are obscene. and multiples of what the ordinary person could expect to earn in a lifetime How could any honest person think they are worth 34.7 million ( Murdoch and many others). Believe NOTHING (almost) of what you read in the papers. It's rarely NEWS. It's someones opinion and is there to serve a purpose, or an AGENDA. Joyce this morning, on the ABC, personally DENIED the newspaper story about Julia Gillard. Nev
turboplanner Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 You mean you don't earn that in a week FT?
turboplanner Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Agree with your first part FH, got lost when the sermon really started. I saw the huge improvements in General Motors quality and production when the company started involving the workers
HeadInTheClouds Posted October 30, 2011 Author Posted October 30, 2011 What I still find to be one of the most hypocritical, arrogant, self-centred and greedy things about Joyce is that there has been talk of cutting 1000 jobs at Qantas to save money, but he is still happy to have a 71% pay rise.
fly_tornado Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Turbo: When was that, back in 50's? Have you seen Detroit lately?
facthunter Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 Pity you see it as a sermon. It's my own personal view. If it sounds like something others say then maybe they have worked it out for themselves too or perhaps it may be a sermon in their case. ( but I wouldn't assume that would I? The people who keep saying that the market can fix everything have a bit to answer for lately.. I'm happy to play snakes and ladders if the rules are fair, and the playing field is level. Was it Animal Farm."ALL men are equal, but SOME are more equal than others". Free trade agreements are never fair and the advocates of free trade become protectionist the moment it suits them. Nev
kgwilson Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Business, especially big business has no morality. This is why IMHO that we ended up with the GFC. But with all disputes it takes 2 to tango & with the unions wanting more than anyone else in the world & Qantas wanting to slash jobs it was never going to be a walk in the park. Executive remuneration is ridiculously obscene. Will the new law that enforces a Board spill after 2 years of 25% of voters wanting a change to the huge remuneration packages of the top brass actually work? When the largest shareholders are mostly large enterprises themselves with their snouts equally well buried in the money trough it will be hard to get the required 25% from the Mum & Dad shareholders.
fly_tornado Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 The problem with busting the unions is its a short term solution. I wouldn't go near Qantas after this and neither will the 50% of the population that supports the principle of collective bargaining. That's a long term loss of business.
facthunter Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 KGW, the points you make are certainly true and what you say is realistic, but there is no reason to think it is acceptable conduct in the long run. Exploitation of people and resources for profit (unchecked by any limits) can only have a very predictable ending. The advertisers ,to sell their products do a good job of making us think we (must have ABC, or we are an obvious "loser, dropkick etc) They try (and DO) shape our value judgements, with an almost irrresistable force. Most of the stuff is absolute junk, and even if it is made OK you probably don't need the bloody thing anyhow and it will be in landfill in a matter of weeks, (causing another problem). Nev
turboplanner Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 What I still find to be one of the most hypocritical, arrogant, self-centred and greedy things about Joyce is that there has been talk of cutting 1000 jobs at Qantas to save money, but he is still happy to have a 71% pay rise. Check and I think you'll find he took a 20 pc pay cut last year, 20 pc the year before that and 10 to 15 the year before that. Let's see where the Shares go by cob
turboplanner Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Turbo: When was that, back in 50's? Have you seen Detroit lately? Who said anything about Detroit?
fly_tornado Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Check and I think you'll find he took a 20 pc pay cut last year, 20 pc the year before that and 10 to 15 the year before that. Let's see where the Shares go by cob Share price is down from $6, is that the sort of success we should be applauding?
turboplanner Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Pity you see it as a sermon. It's my own personal view. If it sounds like something others say then maybe they have worked it out for themselves too or perhaps it may be a sermon in their case. ( but I wouldn't assume that would I?The people who keep saying that the market can fix everything have a bit to answer for lately.. I'm happy to play snakes and ladders if the rules are fair, and the playing field is level. Was it Animal Farm."ALL men are equal, but SOME are more equal than other. Free trade agreements are never fair and the advocates of free trade become protectionist the moment it suits them. Nev I'll readit agAin
turboplanner Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Share price is down from $6, is that the sort of success we should be applauding? COB
fly_tornado Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Turbo: what short term metric do you need to look @ to call his management a failure? The share price has dropped from $3 over the last 12 months. One day or one week of temporary pumping isn't going to recover loss of confidence in the management. Most capitalist would say the market has spoken.
facthunter Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 When you sack staff, the shares go up. Happens everytime. But wait. Don't they, (the staff), fly the planes, service the planes handle the Pax, ticketing, baggage, etc . Giant shortage of pilots projected for the india asia region due to growth of air traffic. Not enough pilots to fly the planes on order.. Seems like a good time to get rid of the pilots you have (carefully selected and trained), and go out to get cheaper ones. Really doesn't matter how they are trained, as long as there are a couple of people up the front. They only press buttons don't they? Anyone can do it. Uniforms are pretty, (and they don't have to pay for them either).and they want money as well? Maintenance.. We are going to get planes that don't need maintenance. Right?... Nev
Litespeed Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Anyone who thinks this is all the governments fault is dreaming and claims it has neutered Work choices is just plain crap. Just bull and mirrors to make any situation fit the politics to attack Gillard Any proper analysis shows the biggest loser is Qantas , no amount of spin changes the facts. Joyce has just destroyed Billions in goodwill for the long term, all to soothe his meglomania.
turboplanner Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I hope this thread attracts Darky because by now she should have finished her creation of an airline model. This thread has all the thrills from Stalinist Communism to Capitalism which would make Gunboat Smith look like a Salvation Army Major. What I would be most interested in is what each of you would do if the Qantas Board decided to sack Alan Joyce this afternoon and appoint you CEO from tomorrow am. Let's assume you get all the aircraft up in the air, but you're making making major losses in some areas, and at the same time your workforce is at the door. As a theoretical exercise, what would you do to fix it, and what would be the long term plan for Qantas?
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