AF 447 disaster, June 2009

[Gnarly Gnu]

Article in Pop Mech: "What Really Happened Aboard Air France 447"

 

"We now understand that, indeed, AF447 passed into clouds associated with a large system of thunderstorms, its speed sensors became iced over, and the autopilot disengaged. In the ensuing confusion, the pilots lost control of the airplane because they reacted incorrectly to the loss of instrumentation and then seemed unable to comprehend the nature of the problems they had caused. Neither weather nor malfunction doomed AF447, nor a complex chain of error, but a simple but persistent mistake on the part of one of the pilots."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rgmwa]

What a bizarre story! Pilot error aside, why would any manufacturer design a control system that allowed inputs from two pilots with no certainty that either one would be aware of what the other was doing? Think I'll fly Boeing from now on.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[facthunter]

I believe the capt's (CM1), over-rides the other. With sidestick "control" you are not inputting the control surfaces directly. The on board computers have to allow things to happen This is supposed to prevent the pilots doing things that endanger the aircraft. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

A classic case of not flying the aircraft.

 

Always fly the bloody aircraft, get the plane level- take command.

 

Tragic stupidity a light plane pilot would never do.

 

 

[David Isaac]

It is difficult to understand, but a 757 pilot did something similar when one of the pitot tubes blocked and he ignored the Boeing stick shaker and did almost exactly the same thing.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

02:13:40 (Bonin) Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l'heure!

 

"But I've had the stick back the whole time!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a real double-facepalm moment....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

I firmly believe that most of us would not know at all, what it is like to be in this type of situation with turbulence, false warnings. airspeed inop. and icing conditions. and flying at high altitudes when the OAT is well above normal for that situation/ level. OAT has a major effect on a planes ability to fly at height..

 

We can be astounded at someone doing things that "I would never be so stupid to do in my plane", (being a Jab or such.)

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the situation is not capable of being understood by many who have no personal knowledge/ experience of such things,

 

Sorry to bring this up, but it is not eliteism, it has to be said. I didn't say everything was done right either but how mant of you have ever flown through an Inter tropic Convergence Zone where the tops go to 60,000 feet?. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

.........but how mant of you have ever flown through an Inter tropic Convergence Zone where the tops go to 60,000 feet?. Nev

and still managed to stay VFR!!!!!

[Litespeed]

Nev,

 

I sympathise with the situation they were in and understand it would have been way outside their normal experience- but lack of situational awareness and command control decisions not been made lead to a huge death toll.

 

All aboard paid the ultimate price for lack of flying the aircraft.

 

I assume the artificial horizon would have still been working?

 

Would they not realise that when all else fails- collect all relevant info on the aircraft attitude and fly the plane.

 

The screaming stall warning with non expected data should have given them enough to see a situation had clearly developed.

 

Yes they are a highly sophisticated aircraft and ops outside of normal flight parameters would be difficult. But I find it hard to see they were completely blind info wise to the issues.

 

I think they put blind faith in the machine even when it screamed all was not ok. If the left seat to took command as he should have, time was plenty to problem solve with the right seat and gain additional info from the flight computer. GPS and nav would have told them the true speed and height. Redundant data sources are their to be used, not ignored.

 

I guess I can't see how they missed the facts- you pull back and keep pulling back.......................it stalls. Why when you have miles below you, do you keep pulling back?

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't think we will get enough facts to make a really constructive assessment. I would need an equivalent of an endorsement on the aeroplane. That particular type. and the version of it used by that company. Companies specify variants of the FMS. They are not all the same

 

The severity of updrafts/ downdrafts ( could easily be 6,000 fpm or more) , icing and aircraft performance ( or lack of). We just don't know enough to make any comments that would be taken as valid. Can you trust the source of the information that we are deliberating on? I don't. It's almost pointless to speculate. As I said earlier the controls do not directly respond to the sidestick. The appropriate computer processes it and allows it if there are no overriding considerations.

 

As far as the AH is concerned the pitch attitude variation across the speed range (clean) could easily be 8 degrees requiring large trim changes as well. Nev

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

nor a complex chain of error

Looks like a very complex chain of errors to me, I can see a number of points where different actions would lead to a different outcome, beginning with diverting around weather as they passed through the ITCZ! The holding back of the stick was just the 'fait accompli'!

The lessons to be learned from the AF447 disaster will no doubt change airline (and all) flying for years to come.

 

 

[Ultralights]

almost identical situation to the dash 8 that went in in the USA, that has now resulted in all airline crews requiring ATPL licence, and minimum 1500 hrs! the crew failed to recognise the stall, and held th aircraft in the stall all the way to the ground.. very sad. something that really annoys me when i get told when applying for airline flying jobs "sorry, you have too much experience for us"

 

 

[Methusala]

It is almost impossible to mentally transport oneself into this situation with no experience of flying an airliner in these conditions. I reccomend to everyone Earnest Gann's classic novel "Fate is the Hunter". The premise of this book put very simply is that there are millions of ways to come unstuck in the air. His fascinating reminiscences of being a pioneering "line captain" are sprinkled with anecdotes of the untimely demise of many of his esteemed peers. Good reading and compliments of the season, Don

 

 

[dazza 38]

It is almost impossible to mentally transport oneself into this situation with no experience of flying an airliner in these conditions. I reccomend to everyone Earnest Gann's classic novel "Fate is the Hunter". The premise of this book put very simply is that there are millions of ways to come unstuck in the air. His fascinating reminiscences of being a pioneering "line captain" are sprinkled with anecdotes of the untimely demise of many of his esteemed peers. Good reading and compliments of the season, Don

I have read that book twice.It is a great read.