777 Co-Pilot being hammered in the UK press. . .

[Phil Perry]

Why oh Why do the media do this ??

 

As soon as we heard that a trebleseven had dropped onto the deck prematurely in Los Angeles. . ., the media pundits go into overdrive. All I've seen in the newspapers today is stories about some poor "Trainee Pilot" who had only forty odd hours on type, getting it seriously wrong and actually quoting airspeeds. . . . .Geez.

 

I have to admit, my first thought, when I heard the initial report on the car radio, was that "Was this a similar event to the Heathrow incident," the one where there was an issue with fuel flow demand restriction apparently caused by low temperatures at altitude, causing fuel freezing and the pilot had to reduce flap on approach to stretch the glide and bellyflop the machine onto the grass bit before the runway threshold at Heathrow, just to avoid it stalling onto a densely populated area,. . . . but NO. It wasn't. . . . apparently. . .

 

The press are now nailing a trainee pilot to the wall. Well, I have absolutely NO IDEA what happened, I can only "assume" that the approach speed was less than it should have been for the load, surface wind, density altitude and other conditions computed. But if a trainee pilot does not get a chance to land a real aeroplane now and again,. . .then he will never become an Experienced pilot will he / she ?? If there is any "Blame" then this should surely reside with the commander, who is, at all times completely responsible for the conduct of the operation.

 

End of rant. Not an RAA issue. Apologies. I should have put this on PPRUNE . . . those worthies will no doubt have dissected the situation into small pieces by now and found the problem, . . . . !!

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

Well, I have absolutely NO IDEA what happened, I can only "assume"...

Perhaps you should refrain from speculating lest you become like the press....

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Perhaps you should refrain from speculating lest you become like the press....

Truly was not intended as such NB,

 

Just infuriated at the media reaction to all and every aircrash incident. The post was directed at the press, and NOT at the incident, or didn't I make that clear ?

 

HOWEVER,. . . THANK YOU FOR YOUR CALMING INFLUENCE AND ADVICE.

 

Phil

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Perhaps you should refrain from speculating lest you become like the press....

What did he speculate about, or am I missing something?

 

Phil.

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

What did he speculate about, or am I missing something?Phil.

Read the sentences after the bit I quoted, re speed. Do we really expect the media to show restraint when we can't?

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Oh, well silly me,. . . I thought I was having a "Go" at the media and discussing something non-specific. . . . . and actually referred to the fact that the media had MENTIONED airspeed. . .which IS specific. . .

 

SORRY

 

Won't fall into that PC trap again.

 

I shouldn't really comment at all I guess, as I'm only a desk pilot and have never flown a Boeing 777 at all ( not even in a sim ) Note to self - put all future posts thru the Bullcrap filter so I don't annoy anyone else on the forum.

 

( Phil disappears into the darkness kicking teddies all over the car park. . . .)

 

!

 

 

[metalman]

Read the sentences after the bit I quoted, re speed. Do we really expect the media to show restraint when we can't?

Well I have no opinion about the 777 stack ,but I'd have to say its wonderful to finally hear from you Mr Nobody, I actually doubted you even existed ,,,my kids have been blaming you for stuff for years and here you are! In fact I'm going to forgive you for all the sh1t you did around my house simply because I feel bad for punishing my kids so much!

Welcome and cheers

 

Matty

 

 

[fly_tornado]

You mean SFO not LAX

 

 

[sportaviation]

have a look at this report on the accident!

 

http://flyingprofessors.net/what-happened-to-asiana-airlines-flight-214-2/

 

 

[dazza 38]

Jeez you blokes are friendly. All the data may not been analysed yet but I honestly reckon that it will found that there was nothing wrong with the 777. I think it will come down to the aircrew having a bad day.. Which seems to happen with a few Asian airlines.

 

 

[derekliston]

At the risk of upsetting all of the apparently easily upset types, as soon as I heard that the tail had broken off I said pilot error, that was only confirmed when I saw the nose up attitude in the amateur video. Hate to ever admit airline pilots are capable of error but they are, despite the best efforts of designers to build in safety, as long as there is a human in the cockpit then error is possible.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Some more history.

 

Sent to me by a pilot mate.

 

I did an instrument course and shared a house with Roger *******, a retired BOAC 747 captain (also had quite a few hours on the concorde). After BOAC he went to Singapore airlines and tried to train their Pilots in simulators AND SAID EXACTLY THE SAME THING. He was sacked for failing crews who did not meet his standards.

 

Subject:

 

Fwd: Low-down on Korean pilots

 

Subject:

 

Low-down on Korean pilots

 

After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the –400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it’s a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.

 

One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I don’t think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all “got it” and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

 

We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

 

This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce “normal” standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt’ compute that you needed to be a 1000’ AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn’t pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Brown was.

 

Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested “Radar Vectors” to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then “Cleared for the approach” and he could have selected “Exit Hold” and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to “Extend the FAF” and he couldn’t understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was “Hold at XYZ.” Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).

 

This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141’s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!

 

The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just can’t change 3000 years of culture.

 

The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. It’s actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they don’t trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they don’t get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!

 

Finally, I’ll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.

 

Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250’ after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800’ after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real “flight time” or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, it’s the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

 

So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.

 

Tom B

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Sobering stuff. We do our best to avoid ethnic stereotypes, but we also want to be safe when we fly.

 

People often bemoan the loss of traditional industries to more efficient foreign producers. Flying is certainly one area where Oz has an advantage. All pilots are not equal when a crisis occurs.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have flown with Asian pilots and now I avoid those airlines where they will be in the cockpit. Talking to Aussie airline pilots, this whole episode can be summed up in what they say of the Asians. If you want to avoid an air crash, then avoid those airlines with a poor safety record, and in that I would include KLM and Air New Zealand.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

When everything goes wrong and the outlook is bleak, that's when a pilot really earns his pay. We hear of some who throw up their hands and say it's the will of God, and give up. My hero is the JAL captain who maintained control of his 747 after the hydraulics to his rudder and elevator were cut. Using only engine thrust and ailerons, he kept her flying until the foothills of Mt Fuji got in the way. I will happily fly JAL and Qantas.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Its amazing how quickly we can wheel out a stereotype and make it fit the situation. Who hasn't had a bad day at work and forgotten something?

 

 

[derekliston]

Nothing stereotypical about it, just watch the video. Simple physics or aerodynamics dictate that the slower you fly the higher the nose until you stall. In the case of an airliner, if the tail hits the runway before the main gear, something is going to break. As far as having a bad day at work, most of us don't have a couple of hundred people behind us relying on us getting it right and that's why they carry two pilots.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Its called subtle racism, you don't realise what your saying because you've held that belief for so long it just seems natural. You probably don't even think of yourself as being racist, more of a realist.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I'm not sure were subtle racism fits into it. I have said above that some Asian airlines seem to have "bad days". The proof is in the pudding so to speak. They seem to crash a lot. It is recorded history. If Australian airlines had a record similar to some of the airlines in Asia. I would say the same thing about Australian airlines.

 

 

[metalman]

Well Dazza you are a sneaky racist, the last thing we need is the truth no matter how offensive

 

 

[derekliston]

Nothing racist about pilot error, but fact of life there are airlines that I would fly with any time, airlines Garuda for one that I will never fly with and some, Air India is one with whom I have flown and will never fly again and in case you are going to call me racist, one of my favourite airlines is Cathay Pacific.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I'm sure Daz would quote hard numbers if he had them, so lets just call it what it is. A lot of ex-BA/Lufthansa/Qantas pilots are pissed off at loosing their jobs to these ambitious airlines from the east, then to find out they can't even hold onto a teaching position would be the last straw.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't think race is the issue, it's probably like that 747 instructor said - cultural approach to education. He did state that the pilots who were sent overseas to do their flight training were fine.

 

Personally I think the racism card gets dealt way too easily. If a country has a problem with the way it trains pilots, there's no point gagging anyone who points it out, or who decides to up their personal survival odds by not flying with their national airline. It's not like people are saying that anyone with Korean ancestry can't fly well - if the person in the left hand seat of a Qantas flight is Korean you wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

If that article is real - and I have no reason to think it isn't - then it's about actual experience from an instructor who found incompetent crews driving large passenger aircraft. If I now stand on my hind legs and say "I wouldn't fly KAL because I don't trust that the flight crews are properly trained" - does that make me a racist?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Its called subtle racism, you don't realise what your saying because you've held that belief for so long it just seems natural. You probably don't even think of yourself as being racist, more of a realist.

You must be right, FT. I guess I must be racist. I believe that different cultures are better at different things. That means I can recognise the areas where my countrymen are crap. I would love to take all Australians to Japan to see how a proper railway system is build and taken care of.

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

You must be right, FT. I guess I must be racist. I believe that different cultures are better at different things. That means I can recognise the areas where my countrymen are crap. I would love to take all Australians to Japan to see how a proper railway system is build and taken care of.

Lyle...dont lower yourself trying to justify your beliefs. You know what they say...something like "They will bring you down to their level then beat you with experience".

Some cant be helped!

 

Scotty