777 Co-Pilot being hammered in the UK press. . .

[Guest Nobody]

At the risk of upsetting all of the apparently easily upset types, as soon as I heard that the tail had broken off I said pilot error, that was only confirmed when I saw the nose up attitude in the amateur video. Hate to ever admit airline pilots are capable of error but they are, despite the best efforts of designers to build in safety, as long as there is a human in the cockpit then error is possible.

So from the missing tail and a video with not a whole lot of detail you were able to determine that it wasn't a bird strike at 400 feet. Or fuel contamination. Or any one (or more) of a number of things. The NTSB don't need to do anymore work.

 

We don't need the ATSB to investigate RAAus accidents in Australia, we can just get the forum here to do the investigation.

 

There are three stages in any investigation, what happend, why it happened, how to stop it happening again. At this point we only know that a plane "landed"* short of the runway. The investigation is barely in the first stage. It might be that pilot error, training culture or mechanical issues are the reason why it occurred. If we want the investigators to do their job shouldn't we wait to see what they say?

 

* does this count as a good landing since they walked away?

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Nothing racist about pilot error, but fact of life there are airlines that I would fly with any time, airlines Garuda for one that I will never fly with and some, Air India is one with whom I have flown and will never fly again and in case you are going to call me racist, one of my favourite airlines is Cathay Pacific.

I flew on an Indian internal flight some years ago and got scalded by a nice cabin staff lady carrying a kettle of hot water down the aisle. . . .not so much Pilot error as "Cargo" error,. . .she tripped over someone's goat.

 

 

[River]

Oh, well silly me,. . . I thought I was having a "Go" at the media and discussing something non-specific. . . . . and actually referred to the fact that the media had MENTIONED airspeed. . .which IS specific. . .SORRY

 

Won't fall into that PC trap again.

 

I shouldn't really comment at all I guess, as I'm only a desk pilot and have never flown a Boeing 777 at all ( not even in a sim ) Note to self - put all future posts thru the Bullcrap filter so I don't annoy anyone else on the forum.

 

( Phil disappears into the darkness kicking teddies all over the car park. . . .)

 

!

Hi Phil, welcome to the aviation world where 'our media' are all instant experts on the how and why's of flying the Big Boeing triple 7... Reading the well known err professional pilots forum thread on this accident, man... Has it lit up all the media, aviators, sim flight computer jocks and the occasional genuine airline pilot trying to all analyses and hang one and all involved makes your humble comment right at the bottom of the list. This mob are so far in front of you, it make one think you are sane Cheers Rodger

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi Phil, welcome to the aviation world where 'our media' are all instant experts on the how and why's of flying the Big Boeing triple 7... Reading the well known err professional pilots forum thread on this accident, man... Has it lit up all the media, aviators, sim flight computer jocks and the occasional genuine airline pilot trying to all analyses and hang one and all involved makes your humble comment right at the bottom of the list. This mob are so far in front of you, it make one think you are sane Cheers Rodger

Thanks Rodger,

 

Hey, I was just a tad annoyed by the local news reports re "That" accident,. . . I have not even Bothered to look at the PPrune site, I knew what I'd find there. . . .

 

I'd absolutely NO intention of SPEKULATIN about anything in particular ! but hey, nobody seems to notice. . . . .

 

I watched a really OLD Aussie movie not long ago, ( yep, . . .it was in grey and white too ) where a bunch of blokes were playing "Two Up" and one of them said. . . ."IF YER DON'T SPECULATE. . . . . YER CAN'T ACCUMULATE. . . ." Only problem with aircrash incidents, is that the speculation only seems to accumulate a load of uninformed tosh. No matter HOW experienced the "Speculators" may be ( or profess to be - - -in the case of PPrune. . . )

 

Happy days. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[dazza 38]

I'm sure Daz would quote hard numbers if he had them, so lets just call it what it is. A lot of ex-BA/Lufthansa/Qantas pilots are pissed off at loosing their jobs to these ambitious airlines from the east, then to find out they can't even hold onto a teaching position would be the last straw.

Example

Garuda has had 14 major aircraft crashes since 1950. I didn't bother checking any other Asian airline as Garuda has already given me enough evidence.

 

 

[dazza 38]

This is straight from the NTSB- There was 3 pilots in the cockpit. The 777 target speed was 137 knots. The aircraft got down to as low as 103 knots 3 seconds before impact. We all know that Big Turbine engines take a fair bit of time to spool up, around 7-9 seconds from flight idle to full go around power. Anyway the 777 got to 106 knots at the time of impact 3 seconds later.

 

The pilot flying assumed that the Auto throttles set for the target speed of 137 knots. Remember there were 3 dudes in the cockpit and all 3 didn't notice that the airspeed had bled off to 103 knots. Also, for the Auto throttles to work. Apparently, both the flight directors (pilots and co pilots) must be both either on or off. (Not one on and one off) .It is alleged that the Pilot flying (LH seat) has his Flight director off and the Training Captain (right seat) had his flight director on. This is currently what the NTSB is checking out ATM.

 

 

[dazza 38]

On a positive note. Looking at the 777 crash photos. The rear cabin pressure bulkhead held together quite well. If it failed, there would have been a few more dead I reckon.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

You must be right, FT. I guess I must be racist. I believe that different cultures are better at different things. That means I can recognise the areas where my countrymen are crap. I would love to take all Australians to Japan to see how a proper railway system is build and taken care of.

The media love slamming the aviation industry, its just a bonus when its a funny sounding Asian airline that doesn't advertise.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Wouldn't it be funny if the NTSB find that the 777 auto throttle system was faulty and they have to ground all the 777s...

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Oh, well silly me,. . . I thought I was having a "Go" at the media and discussing something non-specific. . . . . and actually referred to the fact that the media had MENTIONED airspeed. . .which IS specific. . .SORRY

 

Won't fall into that PC trap again.

 

I shouldn't really comment at all I guess, as I'm only a desk pilot and have never flown a Boeing 777 at all ( not even in a sim ) Note to self - put all future posts thru the Bullcrap filter so I don't annoy anyone else on the forum.

 

( Phil disappears into the darkness kicking teddies all over the car park. . . .)

 

!

I guess that make 2 of us

 

 

[fly_tornado]

ExampleGaruda has had 14 major aircraft crashes since 1950. I didn't bother checking any other Asian airline as Garuda has already given me enough evidence.

Why make an effort to make an informed opinion when the media can do it for you, poorly.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines#Incidents_and_accidents

 

I wouldn't say that it worse than any European or US airline but your mind is made up and the facts won't change that.

 

 

[nong]

Its called subtle racism, you don't realise what your saying because you've held that belief for so long it just seems natural. You probably don't even think of yourself as being racist, more of a realist.

In order of importance, flying standards trumps racism. Where pilots can't perform because of culture, societal structure or personal deficiencies, it is relevent....particularly if you or your loved ones travel on RPT.

Low-down on Korean pilots struck me as being a well detailed account written by an aviator who had genuine concerns.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Even though the evidence of Asiana's dangerous flying doesn't support his theory? To me it read like an old man bitter at being dumped because he couldn't teach well enough, students talking about him behind his back etc.

 

Sending out an email like that whilst the media scrum is still feasting on the accident shows very poor form.

 

 

[Yenn]

I am racist, and I don't care who knows it. It is better than putting your head in the sand and being politically correct.

 

I have always maintained that the 2 things I cannot stand are racists and Japanese.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Spot on. Its what's killing aviation in the west, all those non whites and women that live here don't want to spend their money on flying GA in a hostile environment. As we get more women and coloured people in the work force, aviation stands as the last bastion for old white guys.

 

 

[Exadios]

Spot on. Its what's killing aviation in the west, all those non whites and women that live here don't want to spend their money on flying GA in a hostile environment. As we get more women and coloured people in the work force, aviation stands as the last bastion for old white guys.

That's old, fat, white guys if you don't mind. Get it right!

 

 

[oracle1]

Australian pilots will always be in demand,

 

why?

 

because we can fly

 

 

[eightyknots]

Spot on. Its what's killing aviation in the west, all those non whites and women that live here don't want to spend their money on flying GA in a hostile environment. As we get more women and coloured people in the work force, aviation stands as the last bastion for old white guys.

F-T: why do you persist in quoting "One gets a safer ride with a certified aeroplane." What's wrong, for instance, with RA-Aus planes?

 

That statement seems like aviation racism to me!

 

 

[Marty_d]

So from the missing tail and a video with not a whole lot of detail you were able to determine that it wasn't a bird strike at 400 feet...

That'd be a bloody big bird.

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

That'd be a bloody big bird.

Not if a flock went through both engines causing engine failure like the Hudson River incident?

It may be that pilot error and or training were the cause and the investigation will determine the cause but wild guesses without all the facts on this forum are no better that the wild guesses in the media.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I know, I know... just trying to bring a little humour to the discussion. Just imagine the tail hitting Amanda Vanstone...

 

Oh, sorry, you're in the US - ok, make that Oprah, pre-diet.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Guess the co-pilot should consider himself and every one else lucky that it is not the lid being hammered down on the pine boxes.

 

It should be the least of his worries.

 

Time will tell, only fact is planes in pieces because it landed without style well short of the threshold.

 

I flew Air India twice, first was the last time, that counted for 2.

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

NTSB report Looks to me like a lot of Pilot/s ERROR

 

Alf

 

Accident description

 

Last updated: 11 July 2013

 

Status: Preliminary - official

 

Date: 06 JUL 2013

 

Time: 11:28

 

Type:

 

Boeing 777-28EER

 

Operator: Asiana Airlines

 

Registration: HL7742

 

C/n / msn: 29171/553

 

First flight: 2005-02-25 (8 years 4 months)

 

Engines: 2 Pratt & Whitney PW4090

 

Crew: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 16

 

Passengers: Fatalities: 2 / Occupants: 291

 

Total: Fatalities: 2 / Occupants: 307

 

Airplane damage: Destroyed

 

Airplane fate: Written off (damaged beyond repair)

 

Location: San Francisco International Airport, CA (SFO) (United States of America)

 

Phase: Landing (LDG)

 

Nature: International Scheduled Passenger

 

Departure airport: Seoul-Incheon International Airport (ICN/RKSI), South Korea

 

Destination airport: San Francisco International Airport, CA (SFO/KSFO), United States of America

 

Flightnumber: 214

 

Narrative:

 

A Boeing 777-200 passenger jet, operated by Asiana Airlines, was destroyed in a landing accident at San Francisco International Airport, CA (SFO). There were 291 passengers and 16 crew members on board. Two passengers died and 49 were seriously injured.

 

Flight OZ-214 originated in Seoul-Incheon International Airport (ICN), South Korea were it departed at 16:35 local Korean time. Destination of the flight was San Francisco, CA.

 

The weather at San Francisco was fine with 6-7 knot winds and a visibility of 10+ miles. The pilot undergoing initial operating experience was in the left hand seat as Pilot Flying. An instructor pilot was sitting in the right hand seat. The relief first officer was in the jump seat at the time of the approach.

 

The pilot flying had logged about 9700 flying hours. Flight 214 was his tenth flight leg on a Boeing 777 while undergoing initial operating experience.

 

The flight was cleared for an approach to runway 28L, the ILS glidepath of which had been declared unserviceable in the current Notam.

 

The airplane was configured for landing with 30 degrees of flaps and gear down. Target threshold speed was 137 knots. According to preliminary information from the cockpit voice recorder, the crew did not state and anomalies or concerns during the approach. The throttles were at idle and autothrottle armed.

 

At 1600 feet the autopilot was disengaged. The aircaft descended through an altitude of 1400 ft at 170 kts and slowed down to 149 kts at 1000 feet.

 

At 500 feet altitude, 34 seconds prior to impact, the speed dropped to 134 kts, which was just below the target threshold speed. The airspeed then dropped significantly, reaching 118 knots at 200 feet altitude. The instructor pilot reported that he noticed four red PAPI lights and concluded that the autothrottle had not maintained speed.

 

Eight seconds prior to impact, the throttles were moved forward. Airspeed according to the FDR, was 112 knots at an altitude of 125 feet. Seven seconds prior to impact, one of the crew members made a call to increase speed.

 

The stick shaker sounded 4 seconds prior to impact. One second later the speed was 103 knots, the lowest recorded by the FDR. One of the crew members made a call for go a around at 1.5 seconds before impact. The throttles were advanced and the engines appeared to respond normally.

 

The main landing gear and rear fuselage then struck a sea wall, just short of runway 28L. Airspeed was 106 knots. The empennage separated at the rear bulkhead.

 

The airplane then ballooned, yawed left and spun 360 degrees before it came to rest to the left of runway 28L, 735 m (2400 ft) from the seawall.

 

A post impact fire occurred when a fuel tank ruptured inboard of the nr. 2 engine, spilling fuel on the hot engine, causing it to ignite.

 

Weather at the time of the accident (11:28 LT / 18:28 Z) was reported as:

 

KSFO 061756Z 21006KT 10SM FEW016 18/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP097 T01780100 10183 20128 51005

 

[10:56 LT: Wind 210 degrees at 6 knots; Visibility: 10 or more miles; few clouds at 1600 feet AGL; Temperature: 18°C, Dew point: 10°C; Pressure 1010 mb]

 

KSFO 061856Z 21007KT 170V240 10SM FEW016 18/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T01830100

 

[11:56 LT: Wind 210 degrees at 7 knots, varying in direction between 170 and 240 degrees; Visibility: 10 or more miles; few clouds at 1600 feet AGL; Temperature: 18°C, Dew point: 10°C; Pressure 1010 mb]

 

The ILS glidepath for runway 28L and 28R at SFO had been declared unserviceable from June 1 until August 22.

 

Sources:

 

» NTSB

 

 

[alf jessup]

And before I start getting hammered for saying pilot error.

 

I guess the runway going up the windscreen and the airspeed decaying is not enough fore warning that something is not right?

 

Na I think we should wait until the stick shaker reminds us that we might have to go full song just 4 seconds before we hit those big rocks that should look like piano keys, oh wait it is ok the cockpit has passed them shame, the rear end is sagging as it always does in the landing configuration.

 

Gee check captain that was a bit of a rough landing don't you think? wait we have invented the 777 convertible.

 

Pilot error on all counts unless the NTSB is lying to us all and blaming the auto throttles for not working because they might not have been configured right in the first place.

 

P.S the only birds it might have struck were the unlucky ones sitting on the rock wall IMO

 

Alf

 

 

[Guest Nobody]

I know, I know... just trying to bring a little humour to the discussion. Just imagine the tail hitting Amanda Vanstone...Oh, sorry, you're in the US - ok, make that Oprah, pre-diet.

In the us but from Australia so know who Vanstone is

Your comment reminds me of the old joke, what do you do if a bird sh1ts on your windscreen? You don't take her on a second date....