Hey Dude, We're At 410.

[Guest Guest]

Hey Dude, we're at 410 !

 

Just Before Dying, a Thrill at 41,000 Feet

 

By MATTHEW L. WALD

 

Published: June 14, 2005

 

WASHINGTON, June 13 - Alone in their 50-seat commercial jet, the two young pilots decided to see what it could do.

 

According to documents released Monday by the National Transportation Safety Board, they climbed so fast that they were pushed down into their seats with 2.3 times the normal force of gravity, zooming toward 41,000 feet, the limit of their Bombardier CRJ200.

 

"Ooh, look at that," said the second-in-command, Peter R. Cesarz, 23, apparently referring to cockpit readings. "Pretty cool."

 

"Man, we can do it," said the captain, Jesse Rhodes, 31. "Forty-one it," he said, referring to the maximum altitude.

 

A few minutes later, though, both engines were dead, and the pilots were struggling to glide to an emergency landing at an airport in Jefferson City, Mo. "We're going to hit houses, dude," one of them said.

 

The plane crashed two and a half miles from the runway, missing the houses but killing the pilots.

 

On Monday, the safety board opened three days of hearings into the crash, which occurred last Oct. 14 on a night flight from Little Rock, Ark., to Minneapolis, to reposition the plane for the next day's schedule.

 

Among the questions at issue is whether the plane's two engines, which are designed to be capable of restarting in flight, may have seized up, resisting four efforts to get them running. Another is whether the airline, Pinnacle, which is rapidly growing and moving young pilots from turboprops into jets, provided appropriate training.

 

Some investigators say the pilots flew the plane far harder than an airline would fly with passengers on board, and in testimony on Monday, Terry Mefford, Pinnacle's chief pilot, agreed.

 

"If there's people in the airplane," he said, "you can count that the crew members are pretty much going by the book."

 

Mr. Mefford also said that since the accident, he had heard talk of a "410 club," whose members had flown the Bombardier to Flight Level 410, or 41,000 feet. Investigators for the safety board apparently heard similar talk. "Investigators formed the impression," a board report said, "that there was a sense of allure to some pilots to cruise at FL 410 just to say they had 'been there and done that.' "

 

The two pilots had set the autopilot to take the plane to its 41,000-foot limit, but instead of specifying the speed at which it should fly while climbing, they specified the rate of climb. When the jet reached the assigned altitude, it was flying relatively slowly.

 

The transcript of their conversation as captured by the cockpit voice recorder suggests exhilaration. An air traffic controller with jurisdiction over the flight asked at one point, "3701, are you an RJ-200?"

 

"That's affirmative," one of the pilots replied.

 

"I've never seen you guys up at 41 there," she said.

 

Then there was laughter in the cockpit.

 

"Yeah, we're actually a, there's ah, we don't have any passengers on board, so we decided to have a little fun and come on up here," one of the pilots answered.

 

In the thin air, though, the engines had less thrust, and the plane slowed further. The nose pitched up as the autopilot tried to keep it at the assigned altitude, and then an automatic system began warning that the plane was approaching a "stall," in which there is too little lift to maintain flight.

 

"Dude, it's losing it," one pilot said, using an expletive. "Yeah," the other said.

 

But as an automatic system tried to push the nose down, to gain speed and prevent the stall, the pilots, for reasons that are unclear, overrode it.

 

So the plane did stall, and the turbulent air flowing off the wings entered the engines, shutting them down.

 

"We don't have any engines," one of the pilots said. "You got to be kidding me."

 

At that point, the safety board says, the plane was within gliding range of five suitable airports. Yet the pilots did not tell the controller the full extent of their problem, reporting that they had lost one engine, not both, and it was not until 14 minutes later that one said: "We need direct to any airport. We have a double engine failure."

 

The airline has denounced the pilots.

 

"It's beyond belief that a professional air crew would act in that manner," said Thomas Palmer, former manager of Pinnacle's training program for that model of jet. He said the crew had evidently disregarded "training and common airmanship."

 

But the Air Line Pilots Association says Pinnacle's safety program had crucial gaps, including lack of training for high altitudes. It also maintains that the engines suffered "core lock," in which engines running at high thrust are shut down suddenly and, when the parts cool at different rates, some rotating components bind up.

 

General Electric, which built the engines, says they did not seize up.

 

To be certified by the Federal Aviation Administration, engines must be capable of restarting in flight. One issue that the safety board will have to resolve is whether the engines on this plane met that rule.

 

:( :( :(

 

 

[Guest Glenn]

June 13? I read that about 2 weeks ago somewhere.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Not here though. 8)

 

 

[Guest Glenn]

No not here.

 

WASHINGTON, June 13 - Alone in their 50-seat commercial jet, the two young pilots decided to see what it could do.

But doesn't that sound like the accident happened on June 13? Doesn't matter anyway. :)

[Guest Guest]

The accident was on October 4th last year, and the story is a little over a week old yes. That was why I didn't post it in the news section.

 

However I though it was very interesting. :D

 

 

[Guest Glenn]

8) okie dokie. :)

 

 

[Guest Ultralights]

from FL40, plenty of time for inflight restarts!!

 

how do you seize a turbine engine without some kind of physical damage from ingestion or another source?

 

 

[Guest Sunshy]

I'd say they needed all the thrust the engines could deliver to maintain FL410. Max thrust for more than a couple of minutes will cause a very high EGT on any jet engine and will kill the engine when pushed to the limit for to long.