Training Aircraft and Spins

[Guest WillMikoyan]

I was just wondering, which of the common training aircraft, notably the Piper PA-38 Tomahawk, which i will be learning to fly in, are able to perform spin manouvers? I was reading through my theory books and apparently its part of the SPL syllabus? Thanks to anyone who can help...

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

I didn't think it is part of the syllabus, but it may have changed since I did my license. The Tomahawk is approved for spins but I recommend you only fly with an instructor who has lots of experience in spinning Tomahawks, due to the stall/spin characteristics associated with the design. The Tomahawk is a great aircraft; you'll have a great time.

 

Other common flight school aircraft for spinning include:

 

Cessna 150/152 (utility)

 

Cessna 172 (utility)

 

Grumman AA1's

 

Beech Skipper

 

Citabria

 

Victa Air tourer

 

That list is from memory, so always check the aircraft flight manual before a flight and consult your instructor.

 

colt

 

 

[Guest WillMikoyan]

Thanks for that, I recently went for a TIF in the Tomahawk and it was a very fun plane to fly, though the first one i've flown apart from Flight Sim. :P

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Will,

 

I see your from Western area of Melbourne. Did you do your TIF at Essendon by any chance with Wingsair or Aeromill flying school? I did some of my navs in PA-38 VH-ZWG and did my license test in VH-ZZO, both Tomahawks are Essendon based.

 

Next time I'm out flying in FUO, I'll film a stall and incipient spin to give you an idea of what it is like and upload it.

 

colt

 

 

[Guest lonewolf]

I believe stalls spins and spirals are part of the GFPT syllabus as I was tested on them when I did mine. If you get a 152 they are great for this sort of thing because you will probably have to kick it into an "unnatural" procedure.

 

152s are great for aeros for a beginner as they will take a reasonable amount of g before the wings and bits start dropping off!!

 

 

[Guest WillMikoyan]

colt_pa32, Yeah I did do the TIF with Aeromil, a few weeks ago i think the aircraft was VH-OCZ also a PA-32 I'm not sure on the rego though. The film would be excellent, I was intrigued when i saw the exercise in the theory books it would be great to see it in action. I tried it out on fs2002 as well in a Cessna 182 and it seemed to go alright, then i tried one in a Fokker F 50, which was interesting...probably not something you would want to do even if it was possible!

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

I finished off my licence with Wings air, now Aeromil in their Tomahawks (PA-38).

 

VH-OCZ also a PA-32

A PA-32 is a Piper Cherokee 6 or Saratoga, there are lots of different Piper aircraft models and you?ll see some of the models below when doing your licence:

 

Model List:

 

J-3 Cub (1930)

 

J-4 Cub Coupe (1938)

 

J-5 Cruiser (1940)

 

PA-6 Sky Sedan (1947)

 

PA-7 Sky Coupe (1945)

 

PA-8 Sky Cycle (1947)

 

PA-12 Super Cruiser (1945)

 

PA-11 Cub Special (1947)

 

PA-14 Family Cruiser (1940s)

 

PA-15 (1947)

 

PA-17 Vagabond (1948)

 

PA-16 Clipper (1949)

 

PA-18 Super Cub (1949)

 

PA-20 Pacer (1950)

 

PA-22 Tri-Pacer, Colt 108 (1951, 1960)

 

PA-23 Apache, Aztec (1952, 1959)

 

PA-24 Comanche (1956)

 

PA-25 Pawnee (1957?)

 

PA-28 Cherokee (1960)

 

PA-30 Twin Comanche (1963)

 

PA-31 Navajo, Cheyenne, Mojave (1964)

 

PA-32 Cherokee Six, Saratoga (1963)

 

PA-34 Seneca (1972)

 

PA-36 Pawnee Brave (1972)

 

PA-38-112 Tomahawk (1977)

 

PA-42 Cheyenne III (1980)

 

PA-44-180 Seminole (1978)

 

PA-46 Malibu, Malibu Mirage, Mirage (1983)

 

PA-46TP Meridian (2000)

 

I'm never done any spins, it wasn't part of the syllabus when I did my licence (2003) and my instructor was not experienced in spinning the Tomahawk, so we only went as far as stalls.

 

Fokker F 50, which was interesting...probably not something you would want to do even if it was possible!

Before crashing into a remote part of Russia in the early 90's, an Aeroflot A310 got into an unintentional spin from which the crew was unable to recover. FS is great; I always have the crash turned off.

 

colt

 

 

[TAA Student Pilot]

I finished off my licence with Wings air, now Aeromil in their Tomahawks (PA-38). I'm never done any spins, it wasn't part of the syllabus when I did my licence (2003) and my instructor was not experienced in spinning the Tomahawk, so we only went as far as stalls.

You want to try some with an instructor qualified to do so, on flightsim or watching it looks very genteel, almost graceful. In real life or non computer generated and actually sitting in an Aircraft it can be frightening, quick and violent.

 

I think all pilots should have a look at this done properly. I have seen it demonstrated with malice or the very least showing off which didn't help the trainee at all, he actually never really recovered from it. Instead of getting to it gradually and while the student was comfortable, a young female instructor demonstrated with the most violent and eye popping flick upsidedown. I think most can do without that sort of bullshit when learning, if the student is not comfortable and prepared then the least your going to do is lose a student.

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

People around these days are too scared to spin Tomahawks so I'll probably never be able to do it.

 

Instead of getting to it gradually and while the student was comfortable, a young female instructor demonstrated with the most violent and eye popping flick upside-down.

I also know of students who have been scared by instructors from similar behaviour, some of which refuse to ever perform a stall again.

 

colt

 

 

[Guest WillMikoyan]

Quote:

 

VH-OCZ also a PA-32

 

A PA-32 is a Piper Cherokee 6 or Saratoga,

 

Oops, my bad... one thing though, while i was flipping through Aero magazine I came across this ad for and aircraft that looks ridiculously like a Tomahawk but says that it is designed from the ground up in Aus... http://www.dwaviation.com

 

is the link, apart from having conventional tail set up it could be a tomahawk.. confusing...

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Yes your right. It is ridiculously like a Tomahawk except for the tail and will probably turn out to be the uglier of the two two types. I thought it was only the Russians and the Chinese who copy other countries designs?

 

colt

 

 

[Guest WillMikoyan]

:D Now its you Aussies as well, us kiwis just steal i.e Pacific aerospace CT-4B... :P :twisted:

 

 

[djpacro]

Quote:aircraft that looks ridiculously like a Tomahawk but says that it is designed from the ground up in Aus... http://www.dwaviation.com

is the link, apart from having conventional tail set up it could be a tomahawk.. confusing...

I don't see why it is confusing or ridiculous - the website explains the Tomahawk origins. Anyone get confused between the Skipper & Tomahawk?They're having a good go at producing a local training aircraft.

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

They're having a good go at producing a local training aircraft.

Yes, and well done to DW aviation for having a go. The Boomerang will have a few improvements on the C152 and PA-38 designs, namely, cabin comfort.

 

Anyone get confused between the Skipper & Tomahawk?

They look as different as most fraternal twins.

 

colt

 

 

[Guest WillMikoyan]

I don't see why it is confusing or ridiculous - the website explains the Tomahawk origins. Anyone get confused between the Skipper & Tomahawk?

Meh so I'm prone to exaggeration a bit... Never mind, i was just a bit iffy that the ad in the mag said it was designed from the ground up in aus when it seems to be pretty much exactly like a tomahawk, but never mind it is good that they are making a new Aussie built trainer etc

[djpacro]

I saw the partly finished prototype at Avalon in 2005. The structure and detail design is certainly a lot different from a Tomahawk even if they borrowed the overall concept and configuration.

 

I wonder if one will be flying at Avalon next year.

 

 

[Guest Iain]

Back to spins

 

The Citabria does spins. The question is, should *I* do spins?

 

Any opinions? I have heard that if I do the optional spin lesson I'll have to demonstrate it in the GFPT flight test.

 

:?:

 

 

[djpacro]

Here's the GFPT test form: http://www.casa.gov.au/manuals/regulate/fcl/form640.pdf

 

No spins on it. However, what if anyone thinks that you'll do solo spinning after your GFPT? Will your instructor give you approval for solo spins after that one spin lesson? (I wouldn't.)

 

Ask the CFI at your school the question - opinions here on what a certain person or school will do really doesn't count for much.

 

I'd recommend a session of spins for the additional skill and knowledge.

 

 

[Guest VH-TJT]

This one is for you Will, if you have not seen it already that is.

 

[nomedia=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KInqmL0eNnI]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]

 

That guy is brave.

 

TJT