Do ou have a turbulance technique??

[motzartmerv]

Hi guys, it may sound like a dumb question, but do you have a technique for flying in turbulance??I was flying back from maitland yesterday in the jab and the sky was smooth as silk untill i had to descend north of sydney to stay out of class C.. The chop was pretty bad..Ive seen it worse, but it got me thinking, i wonder if theres a specific technique my learned friends on the forum may have to make it easier..

 

And also another question..is it my imagination or is the jab more prone to getting chucked around in the chop then other types, i learned in a skyfox and i can't remember ever being tossed about like that in that plane...The jab was being pushed out of co-ordination evry few seconds , so id counter with rudder and of course adverse roll would cause another control input needed..its like im chaseing my own tail...My instructor says to not fight the turbulance, but if i did that i could roll over on my bak...

 

sorry if it seems dumb... but you guys should know me by now, i aint scared to look stupid if i can learn a trick or 2...

 

cheers

 

 

[jcamp]

Priorities are -

 

Avoid Ground

 

Attempt to keep:

 

- Wings level

 

- Speed in the middle of the green

 

Bias towards:

 

- Desired Track

 

-Desired altitude

 

 

[Rob Easther]

Flying in turbulence

 

I'm having difficulty flying in turbulence in an X-Air and would appreciate more advice...I seem to be over correcting with the stick when a friend who flies a Thruster suggested I should use rudder and keep the stick pretty still which I am yet to try. All in all, it's certainly spoiling my enjoyment of flying...I'm too anxious and twitchy at the controls and need to get through this 'phase'...I have about 50 hours solo all up and about 30 in my X-Air. Advice please?

 

 

[Guest David C]

I find in the Jab , you really need to get your speed back to around 80Kts -85 Kts in rough air . However , having said that , it's really not much fun is it being bounced around . On the question of is the Jab more prone to being thrown around in chop , I'm not sure , at the end of the day , it's all down to wing loading I guess .

 

Dave C

 

 

[Ultralights]

first thing is to get speed back into the green or "below max turb penetration speed" dont over correct or apply rapid control movements, as in some cases the forces of the control surface moving and the added forces by the turbulence can cause structural failure, as it did to an Airbus A300 in late 2001 over New York.

 

My technique is just slow it down to the required speed, tighten the seatbelt, stow loose stuff, and just let the aircraft ride it naturally, but try to maintain heading and level to a reasonable degree, In the GA world, its not uncommon for aircraft to ask for a block altitude level in moderate to severe turb.

 

 

[Rob Easther]

Thanks for the advice...what is a 'block' altitude level? Any thoughts on stick v rudder for control please?

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I slow the aircraft down (Jabiru) to around 80-85kts (as Dave C has mentioned), climb or descend (as appropriate) to try and find some smoother air. Small control inputs especially small aileron inputs seem to help rather than fighting. Slowing down is very important and trying to find a new level helps. You would be surprised at the difference of say a few hundred feet. This is especially good if you have nervous pax.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yea, the jab i fly never really gets anywhere near the yellow line anyway..cruises at about 90 kts...so slowing mite help some, however i have been in leyside turbulance that was severe, and the forcast said so.. at times in some of the rotors i had to hold full aeleron deflections to keep the wing level, now, am i wrong but if i were any slower the control surface wouldn't have had the airflow to affect a change big enough to hold off the roll??

 

 

[Mazda]

Yep, cruise at the turbulence penetration speed if there is one published for the Jab. Then relax and let it ride the bumps. Remember that most aircraft are stable enough to try to return to their original flightpath, so most of the time don't do anything - the aircraft will settle. Yes, their might be a bit of yaw but that will most likely correct itself. If anything seems to be going beyond limits (like a roll that keeps going) just gently correct it and leave it alone.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok, thanx guys for the tips..Im not overly concerned about it, i was just curious how you guys handle it..

 

 

[Guest J430]

A block Altitude is a clearance for say .....not above 4500 when you are trying to maintain 4000.

 

The bigger Jab is the same, back to say 110kts IAS and just be gentle. Speedand wingloading is what does the deal.

 

A sport RV7 will still get bounced around, but with a igher wingloading and more speed, backing off to 130kts is probably a good ride!

 

Remember that the plane will most likely take more punishment than you will.

 

J

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I find most people with me flying tend to over-correct on the controls when they are driving. I back off and try to hold the stick still and not chase it all over the sky. It usally settles back into the same spot.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Brent, is your Jab a J160? or lsa?.. Does the Lsa have the same wing as the J160?...im curious about how the smaller LSA would handle the chop.. the rudder and elevator are smaller to rn't they?? ..what is the approach speed of the lsa??

 

Sorry to pick ya brain, but im thinking about hiring an lsa.

 

cheers

 

 

[sain]

It might be worthwhile going for a few rides in a glider, to see the kind of things they look for. After all, thermals are just turbulance to us people with noisy things up the front (or back) of the plane. Can also be handy for planes which don't climb real well.

 

Knowing to avoid flying over the freshly plowed field, the trees, around the hills, or looking out for the small white hat clouds can be quite helpful in finding smoother air to fly in. Doesn't always help, but sometimes...

 

That said, not chasing the stick is damn good advice.

 

 

[IanR]

I think most has been covered - max turbulence penetration speed, don't fight it, etc. Just wanted to add something I learnt very early on in my flying. I had a great old instructor who was always very relaxed (those from Camden probably remember Raoul). On this particular day I was doing circuits in a C152 in quite strong turbulence. I was getting the white knuckle syndrome from fighting it and holding on too tight. We were on a very bumpy final approach when he finally got sick of me fighting, lent over, slapped me on the wrist and said "let it go - it will do a much better job than you are". I did let go and things smoothed out !! never forgotten that.

 

While not quite the same as what you are talking about it shows that most naturally stable aircraft will fly themselves reasonably well and only need guiding.

 

 

[peter]

I think it is an excellent question and often overlooked when comparing aircraft -- in my SP470 Jab I often needed to throttle back and found that if I was becoming tense I would hold the stick quite "tight" - by making myself have a very loose , open grip things were better. Even though the rated cruise speed is not much higher in the cobra I find it penetrates turbulence so well that I seem to get everywhere a lot faster. It would be nice to hear from owners with the lighter faster aircraft how they rate them in "rough" air.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Same goes for Ross' Cheetah. Just let her go hey Ross ;)

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Absolutely Darren.

 

Slowing down is important - to reduce the potential stress on the airframe. I get it down to 90 at least. More if it's real bouncey.

 

I've found mine is much more stable than Garry's MkI because of the winglets. Especially in yaw.

 

 

[Guest Baphomet]

Hey Rob, as no-one has addressed the rag and tube end of aviation I'll give you my two cents worth. I fly a Bantam, so it's similar to your X-Air. I forget about aileron, and pick up the wing when needed with rudder it's much more effective in fact, it's a good idea to practice flying on rudder and elevator alone. Your aircraft manual will have a specified airspeed for turbulence, stay below it. In an aircraft with such a light wing loading, you are going to get thrown around, keep your harness tight. Don't fight it, let it 'ride' the bumps. less control input is better, but use whatever you need to to maintain control. In fact, on a recent trip there were times when I was at full power in climb attitude and decending, and others when I was steeply nose down engine at idle, and climbing. Get used to it, or restrict your flying to early morning or late afternoon. Don't get overly anxious, have confidence in the airframe, the wings are not going to come off. Most of the things we fly are stressed for at least +4 and -2 (even higher ultimate limits) if you don't think thats much, go and do some aero's and find out what it feels like. Getting outside your comfort zone, isn't a bad thing, but use your judgment if you think it's getting beyond your skill level, then land somewhere and wait until conditions improve.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Hey Rob, as no-one has addressed the rag and tube end of aviation I'll give you my two cents worth. I fly a Bantam, so it's similar to your X-Air. I forget about aileron, and pick up the wing when needed with rudder it's much more effective in fact, it's a good idea to practice flying on rudder and elevator alone. Your aircraft manual will have a specified airspeed for turbulence, stay below it. In an aircraft with such a light wing loading, you are going to get thrown around, keep your harness tight. Don't fight it, let it 'ride' the bumps. less control input is better, but use whatever you need to to maintain control. In fact, on a recent trip there were times when I was at full power in climb attitude and decending, and others when I was steeply nose down engine at idle, and climbing. Get used to it, or restrict your flying to early morning or late afternoon. Don't get overly anxious, have confidence in the airframe, the wings are not going to come off. Most of the things we fly are stressed for at least +4 and -2 (even higher ultimate limits) if you don't think thats much, go and do some aero's and find out what it feels like. Getting outside your comfort zone, isn't a bad thing, but use your judgment if you think it's getting beyond your skill level, then land somewhere and wait until conditions improve.

Aah the Bantam. How I miss the Bantam I used to fly her rudder alone. A gem of a machine. Poor old girl has been sitting on a hoist for over a year awaiting attention. I can tell you about one time caught in a rotor in the Bantam. Zero response to control input. As Just Fred from the forums. Had him with me. Have to change my undies just thinking about that day...:yuk:

 

 

[Rob Easther]

Many thanks to all who responded...I have re-read your comments several times and intend to fly tomorrow weather permitting and will try some new approaches to try and get more comfortable with being bounced around. Special thanks to Baphomet with the rag and tube experience...although I envy those in the Jabiru's and other more sophisticated aircraft, I'm sure the kind of aircraft I'm flying is different...all that wing area for starters. And the strip I fly from is notorious for lumpy conditions being in the hills at the foot of Mt Wellington in Hobart. I have a session booked with an instructor to do some experimenting...many thanks again to all who helped me.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Try a wing loading of around <2.5lbs sq foot. sometimes i just go along for the ride.

 

the airframe never complains i quit before it does. Some Lazair owners have fitted spoilers, but really have to pay attention to what can cause mechcanical turbulance when outlanding. nothing worse than the unexpected dropping you short or standing you on your wingtip.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

It's probably worth also emphasising the issue around turbulence penetration speed. The turbulence penetration speed Vb is that speed at which the wing will stall (and therefore unload) before it is overstressed in turbulence. If it's not specified you should use Va - the speed limit for full control deflection. Slowing down isn't about your comfort (though it might help), it's about protecting the airframe.

 

It's therefore worth knowing what Vb (or Va) is before flying and having a routine, particularly for suddenly experienced turbulence in a fast cruise, to slow down to that speed.

 

Agree wholeheartedly with the advice about not chasing the a/c and just letting it get on with it.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[eastmeg2]

As a Trike Pilot, I say "Roll with it baby". Singing the Tom Jones version while dancing with the control bar helps.

 

I say "dancing" because in those turbulent situations I'm just guiding the trike in the general direction I want it to go in rather than trying to force it to stay accurately on track. I also don't worry too much about staying at a particular altitude so won't increase or decrease power unless I'm seeing more than 500ft altitude change over several minutes. I've had 1000ft/min up and down showing on the VSI in trim at cruise power from thermals & wave, but in most instances it only lasts a few seconds and the entry & exit from these bodies of air has not been as rough as I would have thought (TOUCH WOOD!!!). Though not all trike wings handle rough air as well as a Streak-III does.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[poteroo]

Check the aircrafts POH or other handling notes and determine what is Va and Vb if you can. Remember that these are calculated at full gross weight, and that the Va and Vb are lower with lower weight - just like stall speeds. You might find that with a published Va of 95 KIAS, the range is actually from about 86 - 95. So, err on the side of caution if you are lightly loaded.

 

I use a turbulence handling speed, for want of a better term, which lies midway between Vs (clean stalling speed), and the lower end of the Va range as discussed above. So, to use some numbers, it might be the middle of 55 and 86 KIAS = 71 KIAS. Sometimes this is the same as 1.3 x Vs, but it's not necessarily so.

 

Agree with the advice already given, especially the need to relax your vise-like grip on the stick, and get your feet to work on the rudders. And, be sure to strap your bum firmly to the seat so you and the aircraft are flying united! Nothing more disconcerting than lifting slightly off the seat in the rough stuff!

 

happy days,