wannabee imposters

[sixtiesrelic]

Went to a flyin on the weekend.

 

There were tiny single seat homebuilts to whopping big bulky Trojans, and everything between.

 

There were RAA students to 30,000 hour retired airline blokes admiring the aircraft and the guts that combated CASA and it's ancestors to allow these flying machines into tha Aussy air.

 

A toy areoplane arrived with a big bloke and an ant in it. They didn't get it real straight when they parked it so had to push and pull it into a neat position in the line up.

 

The ant was wearing the beaut uniform with the embroidered wings on the chest and the golden shoulders.

 

He was noted and ignored by his betters. Hundreds of 'em.

 

My friend wandered over and talked to the ant and asked about flying RAA aircraft and the ins and outs of it; he's almost ready to do his commercial license test.

 

The youth proudly announced that he's an instructor with 350 hours and is thinking of getting a private (VH-aeroplane) license.

 

I decided to give him a bit of advice about how he was being regarded by a great nuumber of people... "good thing to take the epaulettes off now ... you'll be regarded as a wanker by the real pilots"

 

He wasn't having any of that ... he wanted to look the part and impress people. Reckoned I'd have to take it up with his CFI

 

I told him, blokes spent ten years as airline pilots in heavy metal before they got to wear three bars and wouldn't view him as anything other than a W@nker.

 

He didn't seem to understand.

 

There was about a million hours of heavy metal experience there ... twenty and thirty year captains... They'll remember his face. Some of them interview in airlines.

 

Real pilots don't prance and they don't really like imposters parading around pertending to be what they aren't... It's a bit like cops and shopping centre security guards.

 

One does, while the other pretends.

 

Mate! get the epaulettes and wings off once you're away from your aeroplane because the ones you should be impressing are going to note you in a way you'd prefer they didn't.

 

 

[Guest OzChris]

I have seen plenty of 'young instructors' where the uniform you discribe...some concider it appropriate and professional in such an environment/culture of training (im not nescessarily one of those people).

 

Im wondering what bugs you so much about it 60's? Is it the fact that he is "just an instructor" or that he is RA-Aus?

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

Hi Chris.

 

RAA... came about to avoid the bulldust of the VH- world. Great for playing and enjoying flying but still stuck with increasing pomposity but avoid a lot of the expensive bulldust.

 

VH- ... completely overtaken with nonsense compared with past times and costs too much. Lost the simple pleasure of 'going for a fly' by introducing airy fairy modules, concocted by academics who study real people who don't explain the most basic knowledge to the studier, so he doesn't get the course overly right and he remains hiding in uni cloisters not coming out into the big bad world.

 

Airlines... pilots who spent years flogging charter aircraft around having to keep the boss and the passengers happy and yet not bust heaps of rules doing it, or work their way up the instructor ladder for years.

 

When they had a thousand or so hours they MIGHT be called in for an interview.

 

IF they were one of the lucky ones and MADE IT, they went through months of ground school, endorsement, like none of you have much idea about and then a hundred hours of gruelling training with failure and " sorry we won't need you" very prominent in the mind.

 

There was a progress check where you were put through your paces and then a day of route check and two hours of assymetricas and emergencies, mostly under the hood to be pronounced ready to be a F.O.

 

Once 'cleared to the line' they were on probation for a year. Stuff up .... and kiss the job goodbye.

 

In that year, there was a follow up check and two Assy and route checks.

 

These professionals with well over a thousand hours (There were a couple of small time slot windows when there were shortages and blokes got in with a couple of hundred hours) wore one thin bar on their shoulders and the passengers knew they were junior pilots.

 

After two years they got their second stripe.

 

After about ten years (some waited eighteen years) they might get their command on a DC-3 or Friendship.

 

You don't just change from the right to the left hand seat. You are put throught the wringer for a couple of months.

 

Once you pass you got a new set of epaulettes... two and a half bars.

 

After two years as a captain you got your three bars.

 

Well after jets had arrived in OZ, the four bars appeared for jet captains.

 

Those stripes were EARNED by very experienced pilots who'd really proved themselves, getting those checks every six months... they now do simulator checks every three months. EVERY check is fraught with the nagging feeling, "If I fail I'll have to do retraining and THEN they'll REALLY look at me. Fail that and demotion... fail in the next phase and good bye job!"

 

Remember the stress of your license check... same feeling four times a year, and your family's lifestyle is at stake... it aint playing.

 

Blokes like Chris have the same stress on them, but recreational pilots who are ready to rush to the cockpit and take over the big jet when the pilots get incapacitated. Naa! no idea; AND by the way, even though you're a whiz at flying the A380 on flt sim; disengage the auto pilot in the real thing and you'll die.

 

Seeing some pimply faced youth strutting around an aerodrome with the golden shoulders grates on the older blokes.

 

A CFI I have a great respect for... he checks Bandit and Metro pilots for the airlines as well as teaching students, flew DC-3s, Boeing 707s and most smaller aircraft. He doesn't bother wearing any wings and gold braid and he has a form of epaulette for his commercial students to give them the feeling of professionalism. They have the name of the flying school in lieu of golden bars.

 

RAA and airlines.... chalk and granite.

 

I've done both... RAA fabulous! It's the spirit of flying.

 

Airline flying ... no freedom. Point the nose in a specified attitude, apply an exact power setting and you get the required performance. The 'spy that lives in the ceiling' and tells you you're doing something wrong like, "Sink rate sink rate" or "too low flaps, too low flaps" dobs you in to the company and then it's a session in front of the boss's desk for explanations.

 

You don't fly airliners! the auto pilot does! That's why so many airline pilots own lighties and many are RAA.. they want to FLY.

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

but recreational pilots who are ready to rush to the cockpit and take over the big jet when the pilots get incapacitated. Naa! no idea

All in good fun Sixties You know with the cabin crew training we were actually instructed on what happens in this situation? We do go up into the office, sit in the seat and program the scarebus to land itself. I know I would prefer to do it rather than another cabin crew member who has never flown. I would not mind having a go 'manually' but as tempting as that would be it's not an option. You really think I'd crash it? I was told in exact words "Mr Masters, I know you fly and as tempting as it would be for you under NO circumstances are you to manually fly the Airbus A320" :biggrin:

 

 

[Guest OzChris]

I understand 60's...

 

I started out in GA and now I fly for fun and promote RA-Aus where ever I go, although even RA-Aus seems to be getting more and more 'beurocratic' nowadaze - is it a good thing? I doubt it, time will tell.

 

I do agree with you, the airline uniform should be earned and not just 'purchased' to "pose".

 

...Oh, and I have flown and landed a B747-400 and didnt crash it - it was at the QF center in Sydney in one of their 'state of the art simulators' :P

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I have to be honest and say this whole topic sounds like a case of sour grapes. If instructors (regardless of whether they are RAA, VH or something else) cannot distinguish within their own ranks some form of delineation between grade 1/2 etc. senior, CFI, etc. then how is anyone to know any difference between them?

 

I don't wear stripes and am not an instructor but I find it hard to believe that a 20,000 hours pilot would look down his nose at a fresh instructor and begrudge him the right to wear a uniform and feel proud about what he has done.

 

I had stripes in the Army, is anyone going to have a go at me for that? You might argue it is different because the Army is not flying and you're right. But so is comparing a guy who flies heavies for a living with someone who flies a Tecnam.

 

Seriously, a 747 pilot with 20,000 hours has my respect right up until that point where he points at an enthusiastic young instructor and begins to belittle him for wearing a piece of cloth on his shoulder.

 

Guys, it is a uniform and meant to relate something about your skill and knowledge in your area of expertise (in this case instructing RAA) not be a method to compare glider pilots to fighter pilots...

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

Professional pilots have a code... Don't big-note yourself.

 

It's been round since Kingsford-Smith was a student.

 

Doctors love their handle. You'll go far to find a real captain require to be refered to, by his title outside an aircraft and it is his right. The poms used the title till the mid 1900s the same way people refer to doctors as 'Doctor'

 

The posers generally aren't particularly good pilots. That's why they have to advertise.

 

Sorry! a three hundred hour toy aeroplane pilot ISN'T in the same league as a real pro.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

Sorry! a three hundred hour toy aeroplane pilot ISN'T in the same league as a real pro.

And thats my point exactly. Anyone who looks at a flight instructor with several stripes on his shoulders and views them in the same league as a heavy driver clearly doesn't know what they're on about and would probably confuse a well dressed bus driver as a pilot anyway. But why a 747 captain gets upset when he sees someone wearing stripes which clearly mean something different to his own is beyond me, he of all people should be able to make the distinction. And as for the little kid who talks to these guys and finds out one flies a "toy" and one flies a "real jumbo" I am sure he will be more impressed with the "real" pilot too.

 

To claim exclusive right to a uniform is ridiculous. Cruise ship captains also wear stripes, do "real" pilots also get hung up on that? And how do these guys propose a senior instructor differentiate himself from his juniors in the absence of stripes? And what about a 737 captain vs an A380 captain? There both captains so do we restrict the use of the word captain too? Where do you draw the line?

 

In the latter example the guy with 4 stripes who walks into the pointy end of the 737/A380 is more than likely the captain of that aircraft. The guy who stepped out his "toy" with four stripes was, I am guessing, in charge of that aircraft. Was he big noting himself? I don't know but if he was the stripes weren't the bit making him look like a w@nker! The comment "take it up with his CFI" makes it sound like he was representing his flight school, imagine telling a QF pilot to take off his uniform if he was representing his company. I hate to think what words might flow after that request!

 

As far as I am concerned I don't think any instructors should feel a 747 (or other) captain has the right to belittle them. After all, 747 pilots were once low hour pilots too. Furthermore, its not as though the instructor will get to keep his 2/3/4 stripes once he makes it into the heavies.

 

I remember one of my first instructors was an ex long haul pilot for Ansett and he reckoned there was a lot of guys who would big note themselves at the top. It was one of the motivators for him to depart the ranks of the so called captains and start a flying school. Sounds to me as though he made the right move...

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

With all due respect even veteran well-respected pilots stuff up. They are not totally in a league of their own. Maybe they get a bit too 'cocky' at times? I don't know just seen them meet their makers over the past. As I said Sixties, more of an observation and with all due respect.

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

would probably confuse a well dressed bus driver as a pilot anyway.

How long does one have to drive a bus to get all the stripes? :biggrin::biggrin:

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

We seem to be bringing in a side issue or two.

 

Let's look at learning to fly and learning to be a musician, so we are out of our box and can see how I see flying from a different perspective to some of you guys.

 

Primary school kids learn to play the recorder or violin... music students.

 

Come the concert, and teary eyed mother is proud of young Ashley... "He played his piece right through without getting a note wrong". Rest of the audience clap politely.

 

Kid keeps going with the music and a few years later plays solo in the school concert. Audience claps appreciatively ... Private pilot.

 

He ain't going on the Burt Newton show at this stage.

 

Continues to study and practise and after a few more years he gets paid to play at pubs or weddings…. Audience sings along and gets his card so they can have him to one of their doos.... Commercial.

 

More years of study and practice and he can arrange known old standards to his jaz rendition of them and has learned presentation. Plays on cruise ships. Audience ask to buy all the tapes of his stuff.

 

.... Pro.

 

Primary school kids don’t really understand what the teacher is getting at when he’s trying to get the singer to hold notes a little longer to get more feeling into the song, or give it some vim, like the cruise ship musician who plays two instruments and sings, does.

 

When I was a primary school kid, ‘vim’ equalled louder in our minds.

 

Private pilots have been trained to fly small aeroplanes competently and safely enough to take passengers. They’re justifiably proud of the accomplishment and know ALL they’ve been taught. It’s been a long hard slog with many moments of doubt that they have it in them. They've been put throught their paces by CFIs and examiners.

 

If they haven’t had the doubts deep down inside, they ain’t that good.

 

Get in a twin and it’s a whole new ball game. Learning stuff you've not even thought of before in singles.

 

Start an IFR rating and you’re back with the doubts and heaps of stuff you've never considered before.

 

Get in a plane over 5700 KG and it’s another new ball game.

 

Get in a jet and you think you have ten big toes on the ends of your hands till you do many, many, months of study and training.

 

I checked out my student pilot license number from 1960 and compare it with my PPL number in 1961 (We got different numbers then) Student no. 19021 Private licence no. 3731 … bl00dy lot started learning to fly who didn’t get to PPL.

 

Of every five who reckoned they’d become a pilot, only one got there. It was hard and that one kept going and succeeded. He’s in ‘the band of brothers’.

 

So mister private pilot; If you’re out somewhere and some bloke announces he’s 'held a pilot’s license' and you ask him about it and he finally admits he didn’t actually go solo, do you regard him as you would the PPL bloke who can comfortably fly his mates to Hamilton island in a lightie?

 

You know that pre-solo bloke doesn’t even know about the intricacies of navigating through, and the radio procedures required to fly in controlled airspace and primary airports.

 

Yeah he could pole a plane around the sky, straightish and level, if you gave him a go while you fold your map, but he ain’t at your standard and you know it. To the non pilot listening to the conversation he thinks, "WoW! … a pilot’s license", which is what the announcer / imposter… wanted.

 

 

[Robbo]

"Mr Masters, I know you fly and as tempting as it would be for you under NO circumstances are you to manually fly the Airbus A320" :biggrin:

:biggrin::biggrin::tongue:

 

 

[Guest OzChris]

I think there are some valid points of the arguement from both sides, but I also think that we are all looking at it from very different perspectives and (possibly) different generational views. Things ARE changing in the airlines...not so much with the older veteran Pilots who wish things to stay as they once were, "in the good ol days". Most people do not look up to pilots as they used to, and really, why should they? Pilots (captain or not) are just performing their job that they have been trained to do, just as a factory line worker does or a doctor.

 

This 'baby boomer' idea of rank and order is a thing of the past. The x and more so the Y generation do things very differently, not necessarily better, but differently, - there still is the rank and order, it is now done/viewed very differently!

 

I understand 60's comments and do not think that he should be fought on his 'beliefs' or 'views' I think that they are well founded...on the other hand from another perspective (and generational view) we have airsick who provides a good view and thoughts from his viewpoint.

 

As long as we don't attack *eachother* then we can learn and understand eachother better.

 

I really appreciate 60's views as I do airsick's...thanks guys!

 

 

[Guest Darren Masters]

And thanks guys for keeping it civil. It is what sets us apart from other aviation forums

 

 

[GAJab]

If this was "another" forum, you'd all be banned by now :biggrin:

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

edited ... repeat

 

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

why should they? Pilots (captain or not) are just performing their job that they have been trained to do, just as a factory line worker does or a doctor.

 

 

Sorry Chris I can't go along with this. You simply can't put factory workers in with the other two.

 

No one calls for blood when most people make any mistakes.

 

There are hardly any industries where workers are under the microscope like pilots on RPT aircraft. They're watched by radar, black boxes, and ACARS from the moment they move.

 

They are checked every three months and it's all taken very seriously. Private pilots have NO idea of the amount a commercial IFR multi engine pilot knows and has to do within fine tolerances.

 

Doctors , they say, can bury their mistakes. Pilots mistakes have TV programs made about them and boards of investigators mull over for weeks, decisions, a pilot has seconds to make.

 

I worked in factories before I got my license and I’ve worked in the pointy end of the most examined industry I know of.

 

If I stuffed up in the factory and we chopped it up and chucked it in the bin. If I’d have stuffed up in an aircraft I’d have lost my job and if it was a major stuff up (Not crash) I could have gone to prison same as a doctor. Don’t know of any ‘workers’ who have that hanging over their head.

 

 

Oh and I’m not sure what you’re getting at here …....Oh, and I have flown and landed a B747-400 and didnt crash it - it was at the QF center in Sydney in one of their 'state of the art simulators' :

 

 

My question is … how many passengers were behind you depending on your not crashing.

 

Like flt sim, Simulators have a reset button for taking you back to the start for another go if you come to grief and perhaps ‘ignore crashes and damage’ one as well.

 

There ain’t one of those buttons in the aeroplane…. No second chances .

 

They also have ways to take control of many external parameters, in that little panel behind the pilots in the state of the art simulators, to make things difficult for them and easy for you.

 

Getting that simulator on the ground was a feather in your cap it takes a dab hand specially coming out of a very ligh aircraft, but it was not in the real world where you have wind, thermals and turbulence to make things difficult.

 

To put this in perspective:- You’re a pilot. You’ve gone through the training one step at a time. You know your stuff. You passed the exams and checks.

 

Plenty of flight simmer reckons they’ve got so much experience T HEY could fly a plane.

 

Might he not rip the wings off because he doesn’t know about the maximum control deflection speed. The flight simmers I’ve seen are a hell of a lot more ham fisted than pilots.

 

What’ll happen when his bum leaves the seat when he PUSHES… remember how you’ve been taught to ‘ease’ the pole.

 

You know what yaw feels like, what causes it and how to stop it. You use YOUR bum much more than you realize and that’s why you are a smooth operator. He’s never felt all the flying forces in his computer chair. How will he contend with sudden yaw and pitch. What’ll happen if he closes his eyes during this.

 

Mate he’ll scare himself in a very short time and ask you to take over.

 

You have climbed to the first storey of the flying tower, one step at a time. There are a few more floors to go and there’s as much in climbing those steps as you’ve climbed already.

 

As mentioned above, this is a great site where gentlemen can have differences of opinion, air them fully and remain friends. We see things differently because of age and experience and don't have slanging matches.

 

If any of us get a cheance to meet each other, we'll gladly do it, because at the bottom of it all we LOVE aviation.

 

Uncle Chop Chop and I are friends and there's well over forty five years between us. I saw him burned in other forums for being young and keen.

 

He's not a pilot YET but that keeness got him a ride over more othan half of the continent in a DC-3 a couple of years ago. There's another here who went for the whole journey too, bcause he's another good bloke.

 

Most of us like sharing the pleasure.

 

 

[Guest OzChris]

Good points 60's

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

A funny story...

 

My friend is a manager in a couple of video stores. He finds the people from the Noosa branch (Probably tourists from elsewhere??) more prone to bring the DVDs back days late and announce they're not paying the late fee.

 

They're told something along the lines of, "You've got a choice pay now' or have the be-uniformed debt collector in the prominently advertised car visiting you to collect. You'll pay them $30 plus what you owe us... first week. Don't pay and they'll be back for visit no. 2 next week and you'll pay them $60 plus the late fee. Don't pay that and they'll see you in court and you'll lose!

 

One young buck said, "See ya in court! I'm a law student and I DON'T have to pay you".

 

Went to court and landed up paying $1600.

 

The 'old crusty' opposite him decided to wipe the floor with him. Didn't like some student thinking he had a chance against a tested and proven pro.

 

To add more to flying simulators.

 

Most of us fought the b00ger and really didn't enjoy the experience. too much riding on the outcome.

 

We were told it is exactly like the aircraft.

 

We flew it like an aircraft and fiddled all the way. Guys who had gotten the jist of it flew on rails.

 

they knew it was a computer and once everything was stable, eg. on climb cruise or descent... touch nothing. Till you put a new imput in everything stays stable and it'll continue on stably till you hit the ground or run out of fuel.

 

How many of you can trim an aircraft and take your hands off and she flies along not gaining or losing height... plenty. BUT you can't leave it go for an hour and nothing changes.

 

We all fly aircraft, continually having to adjust for small disturbances to the degree that we probably move controls when we don't have to. We're manipulators.

 

Perhaps the X & Y generations who've been brought up with computers don't drive and fly like those from the older technology when cars needed constant imputs becauseof the rough roads.

 

 

[winsor68]

"If I stuffed up in the factory and we chopped it up and chucked it in the bin. If I’d have stuffed up in an aircraft I’d have lost my job and if it was a major stuff up (Not crash) I could have gone to prison same as a doctor. Don’t know of any ‘workers’ who have that hanging over their head."

 

Good thread going here...but just wanted to point out as some of our older members may not be aware...any employee these days has the threat of legal action and jail time hanging over their head regardless of the profession. The work force is a dramatically different place then it was 20 years ago. That is not to say that a Professional pilot does not carry a large burden of responsibiity.

 

Personally I have less respect for the majority of commercial pilots than I do recreational pilots...the majority seem to be cheque book graduates these days.

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I think 60's points are correct but also stand by mine. We had a discussion outside of the forum (you know, like civil people do...) and it seems I got the wrong end of the stick. It appears as though this young instructor was running around like a pork chop big noting himself and that, more so than the uniform, is what kicked the whole thing off.

 

As I said earlier, quite often it is not so much the uniform as the guy wearing it that makes him look like a... Well you get the picture.

 

Cheers,

 

AS.

 

 

[Guest Chainsaw]

Gentlemen!

 

Thanks for conducting this discussion in such a good natured and professional manner. I for one have learnt plenty.

 

 

[Guest OzChris]

It seems as though some have got stuck on the "factory worker" - Just to clarify, my mention to factory line workers, doctors or pilots was just to show that people can do their jobs efficiently and safely only with adequate training, learning and experience, no matter what their vocation. Doesnt make them 'special' just trained/experienced. Maybe I should have said Bus driver or crane operator or scafold builder, but its not about the actual *job*

 

Hope that makes sense...just wanted to clarify what I was meaning otherwise we get stuck on a 'word'

 

 

[Coop]

Went to a flyin on the weekend.There were tiny single seat homebuilts to whopping big bulky Trojans, and everything between.

There were RAA students to 30,000 hour retired airline blokes admiring the aircraft and the guts that combated CASA and it's ancestors to allow these flying machines into tha Aussy air.

 

A toy areoplane arrived with a big bloke and an ant in it. They didn't get it real straight when they parked it so had to push and pull it into a neat position in the line up.

 

The ant was wearing the beaut uniform with the embroidered wings on the chest and the golden shoulders.

G'Day Sixties,

 

I came across the attached document which I sent to a good mate of mine upon his achievement of a command in jet passenger aircraft. Just taking the mickey, of course, but its relevant to your comments. I hope the image I've uploaded is legible. You might have to zoom in a bit.

 

Regards

 

Coop

 

[ATTACH]503.vB[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]17926[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

[PlaneInsane]

Airline flying ... no freedom. Point the nose in a specified attitude, apply an exact power setting and you get the required performance. The 'spy that lives in the ceiling' and tells you you're doing something wrong like, "Sink rate sink rate" or "too low flaps, too low flaps" dobs you in to the company and then it's a session in front of the boss's desk for explanations.

You don't fly airliners! the auto pilot does! That's why so many airline pilots own lighties and many are RAA.. they want to FLY.

Exactly 60's. My cousins flying up north with Westwing aviation and even though his not exactly flying 'toys' he refuses to apply for an airline because he wants to fly!

 

Though i believe, as my cousin did, young pilots want to be that captain of that 747 and its not until they gain experience and inevitably age they can crasp that these pilots 'fly' these planes for very little time at all. My cousin was doing the hard yards in WA flying small cargo loads everyday trying to gain those all important hours for QF, JQ etc. I believe after establishing himself at Westwing he realised thats what he wanted to do... I now at 15 and with a measly 3.1 hours with this knowledge still want to be that QF captain, we'll see what happens i suppose...