Solo (PIC) navex

[ahlocks]

Is anyone in the know as to whether I can carry a passenger for the final part of NAV training? I can't find anything in the ops manual that either excludes or mentions carrying a passenger. Apart from holding a PAX endorsement of course.

 

The reason for wishing to take a passenger is to have someone to talk to more than anything. I feel that it's a going to be a fairly monotonous flight just to clock up hours if it has to be done alone. :yuk:

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

not to sure, but if ya have ya pax endorsement i can't see why noti_dunno

 

 

[Guest airsick]

When I did my first solo I was so excited I was nearly wetting myself. When I did my solo navs I was so scared I was nearly myself (still excited though).

 

I found the workload was pretty high too given my lack of experience. No time for being bored and I seriously think that having a passenger would be an unwarranted distraction and potential source of disaster.

 

 

[facthunter]

Bored on solo navex?

 

I may be a bit slow, but if you fellows aren't pulling our collective legs, then we have a serious attitude problem here. N...

 

 

[ahlocks]

I may be a bit slow, but if you fellows aren't pulling our collective legs, then we have a serious attitude problem here. N...

Serious attitude problem? :confused:

 

Plan flight. Fly to waypoint 1. Adjust course. fly to waypoint 2. land or adjust course etc. for two hours. I'd would like to have some company rather than talking to myself for the entire duration.

 

How is this a serious attitude problem?

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I am not sure what the RA guys teach during navs but during my PPL it wasn't quite as simple as you have said. Getting to grips with flying the plane, navigating (positive fixes every ten minutes, course corrections, diversions, etc.) doing your CLEAROF checks and so forth was my primary concern during this part of my training. As I said before, having the extra distraction of a passenger may just let your mind wander a little too far.

 

Remember, flying for ten minutes only a few degrees off your intended heading because you read the wrong bearing off your plan or over looked your compass during your last checks can put you a fair way off track. This may or may not be easy to correct but either way, isn't it better not to get into the situation to start with? My view remains the same - during your training less distractions are better.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I probably should clarify that I have 30 hours PIC and 27 dual on type. Basically, I have to fly the 'solo' hours to finalise the cross country endo to remove the 25 mile restriction I still have.

 

Tooling around locally is still enjoyable, but it will be nice to actually go somewhere from time to time and not have to drag an instructor along to do so. I'd prefer to take 'she who must be obeyed' away for a dirty weekend rather than Greg. I'm sure he would too!! :broken_heart:

 

The RAA NAV training covers all that you mentioned. I just simplified for brevity.

 

 

[facthunter]

Bored on x-country.

 

I didn't write the requirements but they are pretty minimal, and likely to increase. Solo means just that, if you can take a passenger, obviously, you are already at the stage where you can take a passenger. That doesn't make sense does it? If this is allowed, then how would you be aware(the system) if the other person is helping, or not. If you had a major incident/ accident and the passenger was injured, where would we all be?

 

... Just having someone else along, can give you some comfort. It's not the same as being on your lonesome, where psychologically (as well as in reality),the buck stops with you. Everybody makes a big deal of the first solo. It should be something of a formality, but nevertheless it's made a fuss of. There is still an element of that left in your solo cross- country, and if you are sitting there with nothing to do, a lot of things are going unnoticed. Bear in mind, that no matter how long you fly, you will never do a flight where, if you are honest with yourself, some things could not have been done better. I like having someone else along too, but in your case (hopefully) there will be plenty of opportunities in the future.. Good luck N...

 

 

[ahlocks]

I didn't write the requirements but they are pretty minimal, and likely to increase. Solo means just that, if you can take a passenger, obviously, you are already at the stage where you can take a passenger. That doesn't make sense does it? If this is allowed, then how would you be aware(the system) if the other person is helping, or not.

That's the rub I suppose. I've been assessed as competent to carry passengers, but I have to relinquish that, and by implication my honesty, to finalise the cross country endorsement without 'help'.

 

Anyway, if that's what has to be done, so be it. It's not that big a deal.

 

Everybody makes a big deal of the first solo. It should be something of a formality, but nevertheless it's made a fuss of. There is still an element of that left in your solo cross- country, and if you are sitting there with nothing to do, a lot of things are going unnoticed.

I quite disagree with that statement. If nothing abnormal is occurring with the aircraft and is perceived as nothing to do, or dare I say monotonous, from time to time, I'd suggest that the training and practicing of procedures has been effective and is leaving more time to keep in front of the aircraft and to notice those little things that should or could be done better.

 

I like having someone else along too, but in your case (hopefully) there will be plenty of opportunities in the future.. Good luck N...

Thanks N.. (Nev?)

 

I should have it in the can this weekend if the weather plays nice.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[facthunter]

Expand concept.

 

In relation to quote #2 ,ensure you are thinking about the unexpected. Ie suitability of terrain for landing, check clues for wind direction, near the surface, from dust, smoke , wind effect on lakes. What would you do if you thought you were using excess fuel, or high oil temp,low oil pressure, Chest pains, stomache upset, see an unforecast dust storm ahead on track, or thick bushfire smoke. Keep your howgozit going. Fuel/ time calcs. calculate reserves of fuel.etc.etc. I just cannot see that you would have nothing to do, en route. Nev..

 

 

[ahlocks]

Nev,

 

You have turned a simple question into a very informative thread and thankyou for that.

 

In reviewing the original question though, I never actually said there was nothing to do. I said it will be a "fairly monotonous flight just to clock up hours if it has to be done alone." Monotonous meaning tedious, repetative, tiresome.

 

Perhaps that's why you "can not see why I would have nothing to do."

 

I still maintain that it would have been nice to have someone along to help break the monotony.:devil:

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[vk3auu]

Steven, I hate to say this, but you are approaching the exercise from the wrong perspective. It isn't there for you to build hours, it is there to test your competency at cross country navigating.

 

You may have to divert, for all manner of reasons, there are all sorts of things which your instructor might throw at you to do on the way. These will require you to be on top of the flight all the way and you do not want or need to be distracted by a passenger who perhaps might become airsick if you run into turbulence.

 

You might think it is going to be a piece of cake, but it may not. If your instructor is on the ball, it should not.

 

Go alone.

 

David

 

 

[ahlocks]

Hi David,

 

I don't think it is from the wrong perspective, more a matter of a slightly unorthodox manner and attitude.

 

Coincidently, the 'time to first solo' thread pop up to the top recently:

 

I want to be what I call 'bomb proof' when flying. That is, to have the routine down to a point that when a distraction arises, flying is basically muscle memory while I deal with the distraction. To lower the work load so to speak.

It worked. My solo wasn't an earth shattering event or better than sex for me. It was routine. I still made errors and had a touch of butterflies mid downwind but routine kicked in. The butterflies were dispensed with and the error(s) corrected.

I wasn’t in a rush to solo and I haven’t been in a rush to complete the cross country endorsement either. My attitude toward flying hasn’t changed. “Bomb Proof” is still the objective. As an aside, when I checked for synonyms for “routine”, practiced, mundane, repetitive, monotonous, tedious are among the offering.

After lots of local area practice as PIC and eight and a half hours of duel doing navigation and emergency procedures. The reality is that I now have to fly the formal minimum two hours solo so I can broaden the horizon on my license to learn.

 

Am I ready to embark on a trip right across the country yet? Hell no! There’s a lot more to work on yet. But if I’m sh:censored:t scared because I might have to do a diversion or wet my pants because I have to do a forced landing, the training has been a waste of time and would actually reflect poorly on my instructor wouldn’t you agree?

 

I can't see any point in defending my position any further, but a lot of good information and input has been received and noted.

 

David, I find flying an enjoyable experience and I like to share that enjoyable experience with others. But I can’t for a least two hours, so I won’t. In fact, I might even be a selfish mongrel and do more than two hours just for the hell of it! :big_grin:

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Well it's done! Over to YNAR tomorrow for the rubber stamp from Wal. :)

 

A few more bumps owing to being lighter from having no pax for ballast but a pleasant afternoon all the same. Got to admit that the empty seat was convenient for sitting the navigation kit on though.

 

Flew a big loop out to the northeast of Wagga tracking out to Coolac via Gundagai, to checkout the Hume highway deviation works that are in progress, then from Coolac to overhead YCTM and on for YTEM. Course headings were good, ground speeds to within a few knots and ETI's to within a minute. The Met office were spot on with the area forecast today.:thumb_up:

 

Inbound Temora and monitoring CTAF I heard the Temora flying school Tecnam calling downwind. When I made a ten mile call to over fly, I hinted that I would love to drop in if the billy was on. Need I say that they are a great bunch and the coffee was wonderful?

 

I can't say the same for my landing though...YUK! Unfamiliar airstrip. Going for a short field landing onto the gravel strip. A bit of turbulence (might have been a whirlwind..) well it was a definite touchdown and untidy roll out. How embarrassment!

 

The return leg YTEM to YSWG was relatively uneventful. A minor diversion around a cocky burning off a couple of his paddocks and another deviation for the obligatory over fly of Wagga city before tracking East to YSWG for a cross wind entry to 23. At least that landing was nice. Even with a crosswind.

 

Confession: I had the GPS on to record the flight track and I’m feeling fairly smug with how close the track flown was to what was flight planned. And before someone tries to puts words into my mouth, yes it was all planned by map, pencil and wiz wheel and flown by map, compass and timer.

 

Cheers!

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Yenn]

What instruments, other than those mentioned did you have, I dislike having to fly using only a wet compass and consider the Directional Gyro to be a necessity, although I don't have one in my plane. It is on my wish list.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Hi Ian,

 

 

The tin budgie has a vertical card compass (poor man's DG), a solid state Trutrak AI with a GPS directional indicator plus the Garmin 296. I do have a portable Tx with a NAV receiver but I don’t tend to carry it, so haven't tried using that in anger yet. Plus comms radio and Transponder if all else fails. “Melbourne centre request transponder check”.

 

 

Admittedly, navigating around familiar territory is fairly simple and there are plenty of sentinel landmarks to use down this way, so you can pretty much set a heading and fly toward something, be it a village or a hill, as soon as you depart the circuit. Or go IFR when you know where the roads, railways and river are going.

 

 

I’m looking forward to some more challenging navs to expand the comfort zone now the leash is off.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Aussie Steve]

Congrates Steve :thumb_up: well done mate.

 

I just did my first Nav Ex (dual) to Rylstone - Mudgee (land at Mudgee) then on to Bathurst and back home to Katoomba. loved it..cant wait to cut the "control line" so I too can leave the confines of the 25nm limit

 

 

[ab0767]

No you can't. Its against the CAR's for an instructor to allow a student to carry passengers . Penalty 50 Penalty units. A person under instruction for x country whether it be solo or dual is still under instruction and hence is a student. Source Mick Poole operations manager Ra-Aus. If you want a copy of the email pls ask and I will forward it for you

 

 

[storchy neil]

that control line cut what a feeling neil

 

 

[ahlocks]

No you can't. Its against the CAR's for an instructor to allow a student to carry passengers . Penalty 50 Penalty units. A person under instruction for x country whether it be solo or dual is still under instruction and hence is a student. Source Mick Poole operations manager Ra-Aus. If you want a copy of the email pls ask and I will forward it for you

Actually, CARs does allow for an instructor to permit a student pilot to carry passengers on a student pilot license (5.72 and 5.73). There is no provision to carry passengers, other than an instructor, by the holder of an RAA student certificate though. That is clearly stated in the Ops Manual.

The ambiguity is in the alternating use of ‘pilot in command’ and “solo” in the RAA Ops Manual. There is no “solo” in CARs and the definition offered in the RAA Ops manual conflicts with the interpretation being presented as the definition of a student in CARs.

 

Civil Aviation Regulations 1988.

 

PART 1 PRELIMINARY

 

2 Interpretation

 

student pilot

 

means the holder of a

 

student pilot licence.

 

AUF Operations Manual issue 5

 

DEFINITIONS

 

Pilot in Command (PIC) For

 

AUF student

 

purposes: solo flight time

 

It’s after you hold a pilot certificate when then the definitions start to blur and hence the question.

 

2.07 – Flight crew certificate

 

PASSENGER CARRIAGE ENDORSEMENT

 

8. Applicants for the issue of a passenger endorsement shall meet the following minimum requirements:

 

a. Be the holder of a valid AUF

 

Pilot Certificate

 

.

 

b. Have accrued a minimum of 10 hours flight time as

 

pilot in command of an aircraft

 

.

 

c. Have a minimum of 2 hours flight time as

 

pilot in command

 

of an approved two seat ultralight…..

 

Ok, you can’t carry passengers as a pilot certificate holder until you have ten hours “pilot in command”, which has to be as sole occupant as having an instructor with you for company would be deemed as dual. So that’s quite straight forward.

 

CROSS COUNTRY ENDORSEMENT

 

7. Applicants for the issue of a Cross Country endorsement shall meet the following minimum requirements:

 

a. Have completed a minimum of 3 hours dual cross country navigation flight training and accumulated a minimum of

 

2 hours solo

 

cross country navigation experience;….

 

So now that you have a pilot certificate and not a student certificate, with a passenger endorsement, does ‘solo’ mean pilot in command on your own, or pilot in command with a passenger who is not an instructor tagging along for the ride? Now, with nothing in the Ops manual to exclude the carriage of a passenger and no clear definition whether you are deemed to be a student again, let’s bring CARS 1988 into the deliberations;

 

Civil Aviation Regulations 1988.

 

249 Prohibition of carriage of passengers on certain flights

 

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft that carries a passenger must not

 

engage in any of the following types of flying:

 

(a) flying training given to a person who has not passed a general

 

flying progress flight test for aircraft of the category concerned;

 

(b) practice of emergency procedures in the aircraft;

 

© low flying practice;

 

(d) testing an aircraft or its components, power plant or equipment.

 

There’s nothing to exclude carrying a passenger on a NavEx in there either.

 

In summary, the question was then put to the collective wisdom of the forum. The answer, in various guises, was that the term solo was the literal meaning and to fly the ‘solo’ NavEx as pilot in command and sole occupant, so I did.

 

That I was quite comfortable with doing the NavEx and perceived it as just a formality may have concerned some, but hey, you get that.

 

I’m curious why you brought it back up again after the fact, but please PM the email from Mick Poole and I’ll include it in this thread for future reference if anyone else gets to wondering.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[ab0767]

The reason that brought it back up is that it was a very good question, the guidelines are as clear as mud and I thought clarity should be brought to the question. Hence I put it to the operations manager of RA-AUS for the "official" interpretation. Copy of the email below. Mick also quotes CAR 5.72, yes you can carry passengers but only in the local area 10nm for GPFT holders 25nm for RA-AUS pilot certificate holders, no further. Copy of email below.

 

________________________________

 

> From: [email protected]

 

> To: [email protected]

 

> Subject: RE: Carrying of passengers on solo nav

 

> Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:01:44 +1100

 

>

 

>

 

> True… a person under instruction for x country whether it be solo or dual is still under instruction and hence is a student.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Mick Poole

 

>

 

> RA-Aus Operations Manager

 

>

 

> ph: 0400 280087 / 0262 804700

 

>

 

> From: Adrian Burley [mailto:[email protected]]

 

> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 12:56 PM

 

> To: Mick Poole

 

> Subject: RE: Carrying of passengers on solo nav

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> This applies to a student pilot. The enquiry related to a person that holds an RAA certificate with a passenger endorsement. I suppose that it is an arguement of whether someone undertaking Xcountry endorsement is a "Student". Thanks for the prompt reply

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ________________________________

 

>

 

> > From: [email protected]

 

> > To: [email protected]

 

> > Subject: RE: Carrying of passengers on solo nav

 

> > Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:19:31 +1100

 

> >

 

> > Hi Adrian,

 

> >

 

> > Our ops manual is a guide to RA-Aus operations. Not only do we have to

 

> > abide by the Ops manual but by all the relevant CAR's etc that we are not

 

> > specifically exempt from. This is indicated in our ops manual in the

 

> > introduction, specifically the last highlighted note in the Introduction.

 

> > AS for the the specific rule for not carrying passengers on navs, this can

 

> > be found in the CAR's, the specific section I have attached.

 

> >

 

> > Hope this helps.

 

> >

 

> > Regards,

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Mick Poole

 

> > RA-Aus Operations Manager

 

> > ph: 0400 280087 / 0262 804700

 

> >

 

> > -----Original Message-----

 

> > From: Adrian Burley [mailto:[email protected]]

 

> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:02 PM

 

> > To: [email protected]

 

> > Subject: Carrying of passengers on solo nav

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > A question was raised on the recreational aviation forum about the legality

 

> > of carrying a passenger on solo navex. I read the ops manual and it does not

 

> > state NO, an oversight I am sure. Common sense would say no.

 

> >

 

> > Sect 2.07-9 of the ops manual states:

 

> >

 

> > PASSENGER CARRIAGE LIMITATIONS

 

> >

 

> > 9. No Pilot Certificate holder shall carry passengers in an ultralight

 

> > aeroplane unless:

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > a. they have a minimum of 5 hours experience as pilot in command on an

 

> > aircraft of the same group (Section 2.04) as the aircraft which will be used

 

> > for the carriage of passengers; and

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > b. during the last 90 days they have carried out at least 3 take-offs and 3

 

> > landings while flying as pilot in command, or while flying as pilot under

 

> > the supervision of an AUF instructor, of an aircraft of a "similar" type as

 

> > that to be used for the carriage of passengers; and

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > c. they are medically fit and have signed a medical declaration that they

 

> > meet a medical standard equivalent to that required for the issue of a

 

> > private motor vehicle licence in Australia.

 

> >

 

> > Maybe Para 9a should be ammended to include pilot certificate endorsements.

 

> > e.g. of an aircraft type (Section 2.04) for which they hold a group

 

> > endorsement (Section 2.05 refers)

 

> >

 

> > Yours in safe flying

 

 

[ahlocks]

Thanks Adrian. :)

 

I think the simplest solution would be the insertion of "PIC sole occupant" in lieu of "solo" in clause 7a of the cross country endorsement. It is absolute and would prevent any confusion with interpretation of 'for AUF Student purposes'.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B