Preventable Crashes: Changing The Ga/raa Culture

[Ignition]

Just reading a few threads that relate to the trike crash on this forum and another; posted this on another forum but feel it needs to be here too...

 

Sorry to anyone who knew the people and are grieving, I won't be sugar-coating my opinion in any way, but this needs to be said. If anyone finds this offensive or has a problem with it, you are a major part of the culture that needs to change. I will be making this as blunt and to the point as I possibly can.

 

When ever I hear of another crash that couldve been prevented, I wonder wtf the people were thinking (Im not a sympathetic person to preventable crashes...)

 

Part 1 - The Problem - Apparently plenty of people saw the trike takeoff at NATFLY... All those people who saw it but didnt even say anything to the people are a bunch of pussies who should be ashamed to even have not given a thought that someone was about to fly a light aircraft at (or close to) night which in turn lead to 2 people being killed - regardless of whether they were going for a single circuit or anything further, they shouldn't have gotten off the ground at that time of night in an RAA aircraft, they made the wrong choice, and everyone who let them, did too. People are too afraid to say something that could prevent a loss of life, why?

 

Part 2 - The solution - I too have had enough with all the crashes, anytime I see someone do something wrong or plan to do something wrong, I will be having a chat with them, screw if it makes people not like me, I'd rather atleast get the people thinking 'maybe this is a bad idea.' than not say anything at all and them ending up dead... Someone mentioned to me in conversation a few weeks ago, Australian Airline Culture is the best in the world, we aren't afraid to speak up if we don't agree with something, I guess this isn't the same in the GA/RAA world, Its about time that changes.

 

If I hear of another crash that couldve been prevented, I can guarantee I wont be sympathetic at all to the people involved, regardless of how well I know them, because of the fact that they made that choice to take a stupid risk and chances are, no one stopped them. I honestly hate that Aussies are becoming a group of weak bitches just like the government and are afraid people will be offended. Who gives a damn what people will think, just make sure you at least make an effort to get that Airline culture in to the General Aviation world. You might just save a life.

 

Too many of the recent accidents and incidents have been preventable and caused by human error, and it's a complete waste and doesn't improve the general public's view of the industry. We have a lot to lose, ask yourself, Should I stop this person from doing this?, Should I maybe mention to them 'Do you have enough fuel and reserves to make the flight?' casually as I am walking past them as they prepare to jump in the plane and depart?, Should I report them for doing something like Aerobatics in a Jabiru over a major inland town? Should I ask this person if their scrappy looking plane is airworthy and registered or if it has working brakes?

 

The answer to those questions: Yes, you should! Don't even think you shouldn't, If you see someone about to make a bad choice, or they are doing something you don't like, say something, say something to anyone and everyone who will listen. Make an effort to get the message across, We do not and will not tolerate people making stupid mistakes and giving us a bad name. If we allow them to get away with it without having a word to them, we are no better than they are, and both should throw in the towel. You are not made for aviation, if you are afraid to step up and try and stop them from ruining your sport. You will be lucky if you get a second chance after making that mistake, there is a big chance you will be dead.

 

If people know they will be ridiculed and people will have a go at them for making the wrong choice, there is a damn good chance they will rethink their decision.

 

The weak lets-be-a-pussy culture in GA/RAA needs to end.

 

 

Safety Culture Documents that may be of interest:

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9DXWIYOAef0J:www.leadingedgesafety.com.au/FolioFiles/175/756-Safety%20Culture.pdf australian airline culture&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShUkBYrfly1OLE5wBN2BkdgxOjaOKwsJjo7pgVFSzKwVd0qOVGHd0dI3HVN3cxdkAIW0cxdPu-lfwKRE-PVqOlVtgwXxfaDPeWCZYluHjo3-5j9IEoFDM0xvDvDkR3GhQ35sbQB&sig=AHIEtbSvGvAvK6PcHZP2-XtnMhlu32Stmw

 

 

 

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:r9LhegoVIEsJ:www.asasi.org/papers/hayward.pdf why the australian airline culture works&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjAkr4F2H-q-FKSz24Wg-O7H0Vmd6WeJF_jQTi0rIThcjT5it4Ng5SYuFaUXb1c0bDPqGCv_lPspJ-_zbmRP4hjPrWYGBm8RFqA8nyVsjeB0Bg3Phvz-cR5y_oP52BLK8i0ITWq&sig=AHIEtbQsXQRqWP8H1BCpGSDPdpMhGcDEcg

 

 

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:mOwdjKqkFDYJ:www.ageingaircraft.com.au/2011_papers/Achieving%2520Airworthiness%2520Through%2520Culture.pdf+australian+airline+culture&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjaY892qviINmKFuAjw1eFLVWbUkfXAn1Hh-gAMEvCtg66PvnG6xn7YXxWdZfphIZV0GiXIx_Ehhg6_ekPWPK2T1Rs0IpMQjcdc-oofI6frGBKDEbGpbq0kfag_Za0YqHQPlmcG&sig=AHIEtbQg4_hISQAjYVf8xgqV2vv9j8SVwA

 

 

[Spin]

Ig I know where you're coming from, but leading with your chin like that is bound to end in tears. The problem is we aren't dealing in absolutes, ie black or white, no grays involved - your cross wind limit may be higher than mine. I'll give you an example, way back when I used to fly a bag of laundry, otherwise known as a paraglider I once had some officious lassie come and give me a serve for preparing to take off at an advanced site. Turns out her instructor had told them it was too dangerous to fly - meaning too dangerous for students and she had taken it upon herself to enlighten the rest of us. It was however well within my capabilities and I had a great flight - once I'd simmered down. I'm not proud of the fact that she copped it with interest in the pub that evening and didn't bother returning.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for encouraging a safety culture and fully support having a safety officer at clubs and particularly at big events like Natfly. I'd hope that they would be supported by everyone else if they pulled someone up short, but what I don't want to see is a bunch of self appointed safety monitors getting people riled. Counterproductive i.m.o.

 

 

[Ignition]

Yeh, Ill just copy & paste what I just wrote on a different forum about basically the same thing... Probably not the best choice of words. I'll change it to 'have a chat', might be slightly better choice of words? (Maybe not? I dunno, but it will do...)

 

When I say 'having a go at them', I mean, in the calmest way possible, making them aware that I don't think they have made the right choice; not actually going up to them with full intent of blasting it in their face that they made a stupid decision; wrong choice of words on my part. Group expectations can only be seen if more than one person says something, true. If one person says 'I really think you made the wrong choice by flying your Jabiru without brakes over a long distance.' others *may* agree and say the same thing. Humans are sheep, they need one person to say something first, to get the ball rolling before they will voice their opinion too. If someone were to start getting physical, you back away and take control of the situation to calm them while getting your point across, change the mood of the conversation, or walk away. The key is to try not to sound like you are trying to cause trouble, you are concerned, not trying to start something with them.

[Guest avi8tr]

You can't post the same thing on here second to the other forum. Everything you post there becomes copyright to that site (the owner of that site now owns it) and this site is "copying" that one as a result. Try posting on one site or the other, the last thing that Glenn needs is issues from other site administrators.

 

 

[Guest Michael Coates]

Unless it was here first???

 

 

[Ignition]

It was actually posted to Facebook first, and then to the other forum & here. (Although I had to delete & repost on Facebook after making some changes.) Hopefully that doesn't cause any trouble.

 

 

[red750]

Unfortunately there are people who will do idiotic things regardless of the number of warnings that are issued. Like the teenager who piles half a dozen mates in his car and drives at 140kph on a wet night, or the mother who puts her kids in the car and drives with twice the legal blood alcohol content. Some people just can't be told. One would hope that aviators would have developed sufficient airmanship during their training to know what is sensible and what is not, but some recent incidents illustrate that that is not so. I guess the best you can say is "Sorry if you don't like what I'm about to say, but I would rather you be alive and hating me tomorrow than read about you in tomorrows paper."

 

.

 

 

[metalman]

It is always a sad moment when someone get hurt or killed , when it's while persuing some sort of recriational pastime it seems a bit unfair , but, with aviation rarely does anyone go up there without training, depending on your choice you may do lots or less but we are all trained to be the Pilot In Command, that means we are solely responsible for all the desicions made BEFORE we leave the ground . I too saw the trike take off and thought " I hope they're just doing a circuit" , and yes there was plenty of time for a couple of laps , maybe the people on the ground that were closer to the pilots ( both in the AC were pilots) should have said something and probably did , but the final desicion rests with the PIC.

 

I believe there is a good safety culture in Oz , I've seen pilots get a 'word" when they're getting a bit loose with safety , I've seen Casa informed when things got out of hand with a restricted pilot doing long navs with pax, I've made desicions in convoy with other AC when I thought we were better on the ground , but I personally don't feel any responsibility for people who do stupid things and die . I happened to be chatting with a CASA guy when the call came through about the crash , he said that of the nearly twenty fatals he investigated all bar one was pilots doing stuff they shouldn't be doing , again Pilot In Command made a desicion to do something stupid !

 

 

[cficare]

i can imagine next year...........

 

to prevent the 'lemmmings' from the inevitable.....

 

a NOTAM will be issued to the effect that all airfields are closed/unavailable to RAA aircraft from 20 minutes prior to last light at the applicable airfield.... Australia wide!

 

Have an incident after that time....there is NO excuse.

 

 

[Guest avi8tr]

The problem CFI is that you have common sense that others don't... someone will find a way around your cunning plan and come in before first light.

 

 

[winsor68]

I find it absurd to suggest that Australian Airline Safety Culture is the best in the world... Perhaps 20 years ago. Today IMO it is just a matter of time until the sxxt hits the fan big time if my experiences working in this field is anything to go by...