10 minute vs 10 mile markers

[antzx6r]

10 Litre!?! Thats about an hour or 80+ nautical miles in one of those isn't it?

 

Ant

 

:thumb_up:

 

 

[crazy diamond]

There's no option for 6 minute markers :devil:

 

Was always taught by my instructors 6 minute markers, I still remember Bill Whitworth giving me the rounds on 6 minute marker's over everything else. If it was good enough for Bill and the boys to pass on and have the reputation for IFR training they do then it's good enough for me ;).

 

 

[skydog]

I`m a 10NM man.

 

For GA If you have to give a position to ATC or answering another pilots request or whilst inbound the call is to be giving in nm from somewhere plus a bearing and a height so they know where you are.

 

They dont know how fast you travel so using minutes is not as helpful to them. "Traffic Goolwa (CALL SIGN) is 6 minutes 30 seconds south west."

 

My GPS is my secondary nav instrument.

 

 

[ahlocks]

...My GPS is my secondary nav instrument.

Yeah, it's a pain in the A:censored:e having to rub the pencil marks off the screen all the time...

 

 

[Ultralights]

just got back from a long nav over the weekend, and found myself using all 3. 6 min marks to get groundspeed checks and time to next waypoint and visual feature etc, 10 Mile marks but only when 20 miles from an airport, and used in conjunction with the 6 min marks to give accurate ETA's to the circuit. and 10 min marks for CLEAROFF checks and fuel log.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I haven't used either for a long time. I do religously draw a line on the map, and I generally mark a half way point, between A and B. I'm more interested in maintaining a suitably high ground speed, and I know what my engine burns an hour.

 

I will do hourly fuel checks, and sometimes half hourly. I constantly monitor the GPS, (Garmin 12 by choice and simplicity), and always have the map on my lap, for visual conformation that I am on track. I do have an E6B on board, and I will pull it out occasionally, not so much for checking progress, but just to make sure I still know how to use it, should the GPS go down. The two formulas I have written on the E6B are:...Speed = distance X time. and Time = speed X distance. In respect to using the wizz wheel I mean.

 

I always familiarize myself with the route on the map, before the flight, and when you fly it, it seems familiar. I always take note of, and list, enroute alternates. I guess I'm a 'plan the fly, fly the plan' man....................................

 

 

[turboplanner]

So Major, you're rolling along on your line, nothing much has happened for half an hour or so, the land is relatively featureless and boring, and all the electrics go out, followed shortly after by an unexplained engine failure.

 

You need to give a position, and for me in amongst the fluttering map and everything going everywhere, the line and the last marker point would give an immediate reference point.

 

How does your method compare with that?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well if all the electrics have gone out, how the hell am I going to be telling anyone, anything, anyway....? I'd say it's time to grab the GME GPS equipped beacon and look for a place to land, wouldn't you ?....I do fly with Rotax 912 engines, so unexplained engine failures, although possible, are fairly rare compared to some other types, wouldn't you agree ?.............................

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well if all the electrics have gone out, how the hell am I going to be telling anyone, anything, anyway....? I'd say it's time to grab the GME GPS equipped beacon and look for a place to land, wouldn't you ?....I do fly with Rotax 912 engines, so unexplained engine failures, although possible, are fairly rare compared to some other types, wouldn't you agree ?.............................

Well, reading this I take it that without the markers you probably could only have given a vague description of where you are, if, picking up on my technical mistake, just your GPS went out, and your radio was still working.

 

Yes, you may have a beacon, but the point of using markers is that if something does happen, you know within 10 minutes or 10 miles where you are, and in fact in an instant can recall you were only a few minutes from your last marker or your next.

 

Not using them is a bit like saying "Look Ma, no hands"

 

Looking at the disparity in engine and frame hours on ads for second hand aircraft with 912 engines, I'd say there's enough chance of a failure to be exercising care, and for that matter an engine failure isn't the only thing that will send you scrambling for the map position - what about a medical issue?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turboplanner, Even in the remotest country that I have flown in, there is usually something that can be mentioned as an indication of approx position. Basically I do not sit there fat dumb and happy trying to stay awake. I always am referring to the map, and generally know exactly where I am. I also have an excellent non-electrical timepiece on the panel,(Pic 1,cntr left) and am very time concious. Besides we do pay good money for the accuracy of our current beacons, if and when we need them.

 

So my emerg call may go as follows:(I usually cruise at some altitude above 3500') "Mayday,mayday Lightwing 3370 engine failure. Departed Charters Towers 0630 am tracking direct to xxxxxxxx on 275 degrees. Have been airborne 45 minutes, av ground speed 80 kts. Over clear country,scrubbed country to the North, small prominent rock outcrop approx 20 nm to the South. 1 pob. Mayday Mayday, Lightwing 3370."

 

The highlited stuff I would say slowly and clearly.

 

When somebody comes back, I will give further indications of where I am. By then I would have grabbed the clear nautical rule which is handy, and will have a fairly accurate NM distance that I have travelled along my line. Just to pic your interest further, I have never used the 1 in 60 rule either, and never will.

 

The disparity in hours between airframe and engine you suggest on 912 equipped aircraft is more likely due to the owners actually wearing those engines out by actually flying them to TBO. I have renewed two 912uls engines in Storches this year, one had over 2400 hrs on it and was still doing fine.

 

 

 

 

[dazza 38]

HELLO MAJOR, i have never used the 1 in 60, either.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Somebody who must have been seriously anal-retentive came up with that. Now maybe if you are flying 1000nm or further, it will become a factor...otherwise it's the point where things go just a bit silly for me.......................................................................

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turboplanner, I don't really care wether it is a medical issue or an engine failure, the same still applies. I will be able to give a pretty good approximation of my current position over Terra Firma. It would not be my first emergency in a long shot, and I have done just fine in my past one's Thank you.....how about you ??.....................................................................................

 

 

[turboplanner]

Not too bad so far Major, haven't been involved in any fatalities yet.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Nor have I Turbo......................................................................................

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Come on guys...That wasn't even half a Pixxing contest...I know that you both can do better. Next time I want to see some committment and some effort.

 

 

[Spin]

Maybe refer them to the wrinkled plum for some lessons on holding a pxxxxing contest?

 

On second thoughts, don't I have a low BS tolerance and even minor exposure to the prune brings out the worst in me.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Querty, We have to be noice' mate, these are our fellow aviators and fellow adventurers that one is jousting with. And I have the greatest respect for both the above, and expect the same in return................................................................................................

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I must say that I agree with your comments about nav. Flying using ded. reaconing would be such a drudge, I haven't done much of it, its such a pain. I could probably put a reasonable case (to CASA, RAAus) to support formal acceptance of navigation by Off-the-shelf gps.

 

A couple of things that I do to reassure my self are to note the compass heading and ETA once settled in the cruise. If BOTH my GPI (the plural of GPS is GPI obviously) pack it in I've got all the actual, real data (not idiot forcasts) to complete the leg, and probably the days flying.

 

These things are in addition to the "follow yourself on a WAC on your knee" which seems to be universal.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Querty, Noting your Departure time and compass heading is critical. Without departure time you can't really do any accurate fuel calculations, especially at the end of a long run when the old mind is a bit fatigued. And as you say, if you did lose your GPS or GPI, you've got your bearing written down, and the old whiskey compass don't quit. Of course if you carry a clear protractor, you can get any bearing, including diversions straight off the map....keep it simple I say, less chance of screwing it up!..............

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

I fear that you misunderstood my post. Once I am set up on track in the cruise, I note the actual a/c hearing which takes account of the actual wind rether than the forcast wind. I also note the ETA (not departure time) as calculated by the GPS. THAT (and the WAC) is the information that I need to continue the flight on DR if the GPI go belly up.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well how can you calculate you've still got sufficent fuel on board three hours later in a headwind, if you don't know how long you've been flying ? Surely you don't rely on a fuel flo, besides you lost that when the power to the GPI went. So then you've just got the sight guages, low on fuel and in turbulent air ????

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

Looooooooong drawn out exasperated sigh.

 

Knowing the ETA at the commencement of the leg gives a simple check on flight time and duration by undertaking some rather complex arithmatic as described below.

 

ETA - current time = x

 

Now

 

if x < (or=) planned duration, then proceed,

 

if x > planned duration, then recheck fuel quantity,burn rate etc and compare this with expected fuel requirement for the proposed leg.

 

if fuel required > fuel on board you have two options

 

a) plan to add fuel prior to the end of the leg,

 

and b) plan to walk the last part of that particular leg.

 

Disclaimer.....I am not an instructor, Judging from your questions, I strongly suggest that you seek further instruction on this matter from a qualified flight instructor.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Who got himself caught in the pixxing competition now Qwert????

 

 

[Guest Qwerty]

It OK Turbz, I'm just trying to punch some information in...it is bit like trying to deal with computers and ..............