motzartmerv Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Oh boy, do i have a duzzey for you blokes.. I flew from camden to maitland then up the shoot to Taree today.. When i was about 11 miles out from Taree i heard a rex airliner on the area frequency descending to Taree on route from sydney.. I switched freq at 10 miles out to Taree ctaf 118.1..And called inbound.. At 6 miles TR i still hadn't heard from the Rex rpt so i was getting aittle concerned.. I called him up asking his position, he didn't respond.. I started to get really concerned because we were in the same area, i knew we had to be.. I swtitched back to BN center and asked if 118.1 was still the ctaf at taree," yes mate, thats right"...ok so bak to the ctaf and called again.. But still didnt get a response.. I didnt know what to do, i was a little freaked out.. Ok calm down i said to meself , i was starting to freak my passenger out to.. where would he be, the winds were light so i knew the RPT would want to land towards the terminal, even with the tailwind, and he would probably be at 1600, which was the same height i was at as i was going to overfly...i didnt want to turn incase i turned into him, i thought going down would be the best bet and get under him, it was then i rememberd someone on this forum said to lift a wing if ya need to check for traffic..i dropped the left wing and kept straight with rudder and there he was, about 100 feet higher , descending annd tracking pretty much parralel with me but closing a little..I kept the left wing down and turned away....he passed me on the right by at about 200 meters... Then thr radio crackled to life, "Aircraft approaching Taree, Rex 768", i replied " jabiru 4785 rex 768 go ahead"..."jabiru 4785 switch to the ctaf 122.4"..so i did..Then the abuse started "Jabiru 4785, i suggest in future you moniter the ctaf frequency and area frequency of the strip u are approaching..Our paying passengers have a right to safe airways even at these smaller strips.. I don't know what the "ULTRALIGHT" procedures are but us in the "REAL WORLD" use the ctaf.. i was shocked, i thought id stuffed right up..I appolagised and said i did ask BN center if the freq was 118.1" he came back, "no mate, its 122.4, learn to read the ersa.." I was horrified, i was getting a lecture from an airline pilot...what a fool i must be... I landed and slinked into the terminal for a pee, the pilot stood next to his machine shaking his head at me..i couldn't even bring myself to approach him and say sorry.. Inside the terminal i asked the rex ground handler if the freq has recently changed there...he said no, its 118.1.. I told him i had just been abused by the rex crew for being on the wrong freq..."what freq was he on" he asked, i said "122.4"..his face just dropped, are you ****** serious, thats the PAL frequency... well, you can imagine how fast i got back to the jab and jumped on the radio..Rex 768 had started up and was running up.. I went on 122.4, " Rex 748, jabiru 4785", he answered, "4785 go ahead," "Mate, do realise you are broadcasting on the PAL frequency?"....then silence..about 20 seconds, "Umm, 4785, that seems to be correct, switching to 118.1"...I changed to the RIGHT frequency and said (and i know i shouldn't have) " rex 768, EVRYONE who flys has the right to a safe airway, and paying passengers assume there captains are profficient in the use of radio's and all the other buttons and knobs in the cockpitt" "4785, our appolagies," i replied, "no worries mate, have a safe flight...PLEASE" Now...when i returned to YSCN, i told my instructors and the junior inst said i should push it on to cas or at least REX, but the chieff an ex airline pilot said not to worry, these guys got egg allover there faces, that should be enough..Im am inclined not to push the matter, but, he pulled the ultralight card on me, basically made out we are a bunch of cowboys..Thats what really ****** me off, but ontop of that, we had a seperation breakdopwn due to inpropper use of radio by an AIRLINER...what do ya reckon i should do, shut up and forget about it, or throw his company an email?? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushpilot Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Throw his company a polite email... How else will they know... That 'incident' could have been a major 'accident'... Safer skies for everyone doesnt just happen. Thanks for posting your experience; scary as it was.. Cheers, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I reckon that the 1st thing to do is go and get recordings/an electronic file of all of the radio transmissions on both frequencies, so that it is documented and you have them for posterity and comfort if it comes back to bite you or the RAA. I understand that something similar happened in Wagga when an RPT came all the way in on 118.2 when it was changed to 126.95 back in November and a Unicom is presently in place. Human error & familiarity is still a factor, even with gold braid on their epaulettes. It'll be a great story to tell the little motzartmerves a few of years down the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 how do i get a recording of that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer40 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 merv I reckon you did good taking the opportunity to correct him. A worse outcome would have been if he had gone away still thinking the freq was 122.4. That capt learned a valuable lesson today. You've done all you can, I don't think any good would come from taking it further. He may even soften his attitude toward ultralights if you leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 REPORT THIS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Given that he was most likely operating under an IFR flight plan and you have breached his seperation standards, then he will probably be legally obliged to report the incident. - Unless I'm completely wrong, but I think I'm right here. If I were you I would suggest immediately visiting the ATSB website and lodging a report. Nothing much will come of it (as in you can't be reprimanded in any way), however it will be recorded and he / they will probably have to explain. Remember with the pilot shortages at Rex at the moment, he may be low time, may have slipped through the cracks and may be a cowboy - management might be looking for a reason to ditch him - you just don't know! If you don't lodge one, he likely will and will probably just write whatever he wants about you! eg, YOU were the one on the wrong frequency. I do recall when Lee Ungerman visited our school he suggested that if GA aircraft committ 'offences' to please report them immediately. Too many are logged by GA against RA and not the return, because like yourself most RA pilots are reluctant to bother lodging a report. As a result the figures are very much against RA pilots. I had an incident that wasn't similar, however Rex was waiting on the runway for me looking out to their left side at Merimbula. They called me wanting to know why I wasn't where I said I was, however they didn't read the ERSA and didn't realise that all circuits are to the east. They were so busy looking for me on the west side they had no idea where I was. They attempted to 'tell me off' so I had to make reference to their poor understanding of the ERSA. I was clearly calling 'right downwind' at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Well done Merv!! :thumb_up: Yes, if you set off the TCAS it must be lodged as an incident with the ATSB by the airline crew and I'd suggest you either give them (the ATSB, in Canberra) a call or put in a report too (just to make sure they know that the airline crew was on the wrong frequency.) I get really fed up with airline pilots who think private/ultralight pilots are the only ones who can be on the wrong frequency - it's simply not true. Plenty of airline pilots have made that mistake, including pilots of airline jets. They had no right at all to abuse you! Some airline pilots keep pushing for more and more "mandatory" frequency airports, but it doesn't work because anyone can be on the wrong frequency, even if it is a mandatory radio airport. The best thing to learn from this is to always look out of the window because you never know who might be out there on the wrong frequency, or with a radio failure or electrical failure. If you don't hear a radio call it doesn't mean you are the only pilot there, so always look out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 By the way, if you want the tapes to be pulled, you could ask Airservices, or ask the ATSB to get them. They don't keep them for long so do it soon. Just make sure you give them a reasonable time window so they don't have to search through hours of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 I just thought of something...Would airservices moniter and record the PAL freq?? Would seem strange if they did, but if they don't, all they will get is me calling on 118.1, and then calling brisbane cn, and calling again on 118.1...the only time the REX driver called on that freq was to tell me to change to 122.4 .. but i spose that is bad enough, an airliner calling on the right freq to get me to change to the wrong freq.. But the plot thickens becasue, he must have got the freq 118.1 from brisbane cn because i had asked them if that was still right, i called them twice, becasue i still hadn't heard from him and they informed me that he was trying to contact me on the ctaf and to change back to that freq... So Brisbane must have told him i was on 118.1.. how else would he know i was on that freq?? but he still didnt click that the freq was 118.1.. so in his mind there was no way he was on wrong station, even after Bn CN had told him what freq i was on... it just doesn't make sence.. i must say im very dissmayed at this incident.. its dawning on me more and more just how bad a ballsup this was.. there were probably 20 people on that RPT ... In the minutes after his lashing of me, i seriously thought about giving up flying, mabye i partyed to hard as a young fella and killed my pilot brain..I was very shaken and so so mad at myself... i know that anyone can get a freq qrong, but to go so far as to force me onto the wrong one aswell, and ignore or not realise what BN were saying to him.. i would like to get the tape of that conversation to hear what went on between BN CN and him... hmmmm hmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Hmmmm. I must of got confussed with all the freq changes that were occuring, As I understood it from your post you were on the CTAF frequency, so how did he contact you? If you were on the area freq, and you had just finished asking for validation of the CTAF freq (and having had it confirmed I would therefore expect you to be solely on the CTAF freq) Im surprised the area controller didnt feel the need to jump in and set the record straight for the REX dude, especially as he would have 110% knowledge of exactly where the rex guy was:question: (Oops, we posted at almost the same time, your post above answers this conundrum....Sorry) In any event, if it all happened on the area frequency then I think to protect yourself you must lodge a report. If not of your own accord then do it through the RAA Ops mgr. In doing so you allow for the slight chance that the rex guy is not just a normal human who makes mistakes and acknowledges them, but rather seeks to protect himself at your expense, though to do that would require the rex #2 in charge to also play the same game. As to bypassing airservices and reporting directly to REX... I wouldnt do that as Im sure that if you do as you are expected to do, REX will find out about it. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Andy, no, 122.4 is the pilot activated lighting system frequency..Thats why i asked if they would monitor that frquency..Thats where the majority oif the convo took place..i only contacted the area freq 120.55 (i think), twice for a few moments.. thats whats so confusing, the contoller knew i was on 118.1, rex driver contacted them and said he couldnt contact me, controller must have said, he's on 118.1...and rex driver didn't realise that 118.1 was the ctaf, and the controller didnt realise rex was on 122.4 (pal)....a total breakdown...and probably stems from controller not thinking he needed to tell rex driver that 118.1 was the ctaf, he probably just stated that i was "on 118.1" without saying ctaf.... idunno...but im getting madder and madder as the full situation dawns on me...i didnt think about it much on the trip back ....but i am thinking about it now... gggrrrllll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I would still report this to REX, and send a copy to the ATSB. Send it as soon as you can. What this pilot did was wrong, and endangered the life of his passengers, brought his company into disrepute and also slandered the RAA at the same time. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 ... 122.4 is the pilot activated lighting system frequency. .... Did the lights go on? Or did the red mist come down first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Merv the other interesting thing is that when you are flying IFR you need to tell Centre that you are changing to the CTAF, and you must say the actual frequency - eg "Changing to Taree CTAF 118.1 will contact you ops normal by time ..." If they gave the wrong frequency to BN Centre, the Centre controller (in theory) should have picked up on it. And that should be on the tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Another thought - please don't be too angry with the Rex crew because pilot can make that sort of mistake, even multi-crew airline pilots. (Although I don't think he should have spoken to you like that). I still think it would be a good idea for you to lodge a report with the ATSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Captain.. Im not sure if the lights came on...its a good question though..I wasn't looking at them...and i landed on runway 12 which is the grass cross strip..Whats the red mist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Ker Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I tend to agree with Mazda's comments. By all means report the incident so corrections can be made, but maybe go easy on the "I'm right, you're wrong approach". Too often I find myself mentally having a go at other road users, only to realise I've forgotten to indicate (or some other error) in my moment of self-righteousness. If what you have reported is correct, the Rex pilot's already made a goose of himself, maybe the next action should be to help him learn from his mistake. Glad everyone landed safely and walked away. :thumb_up: Mathew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 There is a mention in current aust flying mag of similar incidents being possibly linked to the pilot shortage, experience and ATTITUDE ect. mentions an incident between two competing carriers cpts on the ramp. Attitude seems to be a problem these days with the younger set. needs to be stomped on pronto. Ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 ..Whats the red mist? The "red mist" is what comes down when you are carved up by someone on a racetrack. It causes rage, clouds judgement and sometimes makes you go 0.5 secs/lap faster trying to catch and re-carve the other bloke. It also sometimes makes you go slower and fall off. I assumed that the same thing happens when you get carved up by a Saab. But if you didn't see (or feel) the "red mist" taking over then you must have remained under control. Re the recording of those radio exchanges, I think there is also the private mob who contract to monitor all calls and document aircraft movements for the purpose of allocating landing charges .... but I don't recall their name. Someone here will know????? Not sure that anyone would have got the discussion while you were both on the ground though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 You'll probably find that legally you are obliged to report it based on the proximity and probably within a week or 2. If you don't, he will and you might not look like the good guy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I tend to agree with the sentiments above, report it. Not for the sake of vengeance but for the sake of safety. If no one ever knows this happened then how will anyone benefit? I also tend to agree with Brent. If is a reportable incident and you don't report it then it simply looks as though you are guilty before the day has even begun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 12, 2008 Author Share Posted March 12, 2008 Ok, an update.. Ive been on the phone with REX thismorning.. i decided to report the incident to them at least and have requested the tapes pulled for the area freq... brisbane control informed me for privacy issues they have with the airlines that i may not be able to get the copy's..grrlll, and they don't record ctaf's and they don't record pal frequency's (why would they)...but, the controller said he can and will pull the tapes and listen to them and he can inform me if my story is carobarated by the tapes of the area freq..So the tapes they pull will show me contacting the controller to confirm frequency, and him confirming and telling me to go back to ctaf to contact rex as he'd been on area frequency trying to get in touch with me...so, id say, the poo's gunna hit the fan... This isn't about who was right and who was wrong...if that were the case i could have sorted it out on the ground with the pilot...this is about safety and a major breakdown of the third fundement of safe aviation, COMMUNICATE.. We in the RAA ( well me) look up to these guys and expect a certain level of professionalism with regards to safety.. The rex Auditor i have been talking with has said that she's concerned it may be a training issue with rex, but i don't agree,..Arrival at ctaf procedures are a fundemental part of early training starting with your first flight and nav's... its not an inhouse problem, its a pilot error that needs to be sorted out..pronto... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I find it interesting that for privacy issues you can't get a copy. Can the airlines? Can you pull the same privacy stunt? It seems a bit weird that you can't get a tape of what is essentially a public broadcast but hey, stranger things have happened. What I would do though is ask for something in writing (an email for example) to corroborate your story just in case. And I agree, this is a basic training issue and one that extends even beyond basic flight training. I would have thought a basic prerequisite for flying anywhere is being able to distinguish the difference between the letters P-A-L and C-T-A-F in the E-R-S-A. The three R's are tought in primary school, not flying school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Merv did you contact the ATSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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