Air rage from Rex Capt

[Guest Macnoz]

Merv

 

4785 has dual radio with 2 RX and switch for change transmit has it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Contact ATSB/CASA.

 

Merv, you are required by LAW to contact ATSB/ CASA? ( having become "aware" of an occurrence which affects air safety), INCIDENT... I think within 48 hours. This applies to "any person", not just crew etc.I don't believe contacting REX was well advised, (you are outside the system). Also at a circuit operated by RPT, what is the height that you should be at? Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda, 4785 does have 2 RX but the second radio has exsesive noise and is seldom used..

 

Nev, not sure what u mean bu cct height, the problem was that i was at cct overfly height 1600 ft and he was at cct height 1600 ft, this little descrepancy in cct procedures has plagued my mind for some time..how are we to know that rpt acft do use that particular strip regulary??

 

I didnt want to climb back up to 2100 after i heard inbound call as i would have been climbing through his descent levels..

 

I have sent a copy of my email to casa and also the RAA..

 

 

[Matt]

Hey Motza, your overfly height of 1600' was his circuit height (1500' AGL). Check CTAF procedures as high performance aircraft (Jets, Turboprops etc.) circuit height is 1500' AGL. This can cause an issue where you're operating / overflying a field used by higher performance aircraft as there can be conflict with you overflying at the same altitude as an aircraft in the circuit.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

and also.. i wasn't overflying the strip when i saw him, we were about 5 miles from the strip..an area where technically i should be allowed to climb to overfly height?? (please correct me if im wrong there).He had let down to his cct height a long way out i pressume..But yes...i was set up for an overfly at 1600 instead of 2100...thats why i was desperate to get onto him.. i didnt feel safe climbing through his levels...my instinct was to descend and get away from cct area...

 

please tell me if this is a wrong thing to do

 

My problem is this, how are we to know if a high performance acft is going to use that strip?? by radio of course.. otherwise we would need to pressume that any strip of desent length could have a high performance acft at any time and make all our overfly's at 2000 ft?

 

 

[Matt]

Personally I plan all overflys at 2000' AGL or above for exactly that reason - you never know who or what's going to be in circuit and possibly they'll be anywhere between 500' and 1500'.

 

Regarding your actions...I'd suggest you did the right thing by trying to stay out of the way and continue to try to contact him and not progressing until you were sure where he was.

 

Remember also that these guys (RPT) have TCAS and (assuming you're transponder equipped with it on) they'll see you on TCAS well before you'll ever see them.

 

We've all learned something from your experience which is the intent of the forum.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx mat, yes, my big learny from this is to assume faster acft being at 1500 ft regardless of weather or not the strip caters for rpt acft(although taree does and i should have known this)..form now on ill overfly evrything at 2000 agl..Im wondering why they teach 1500 ft overfly's at all, but anyway..

 

Even if i was at 2000 ft it would have made little differance because between 5-10 miles out is the descent path anyway, thats why communication is very nessacary..

 

my 2 cents..

 

anyway, the ball is rolling with casa and the RAA so mabye i shouldn't keep commenting on the incident..

 

Thanx for all your advice and encouragment guys

 

 

[facthunter]

Other traffic.

 

You do not know whether faster traffic ie. (120Knots downwind normal ops.), is likely to be there, but anytime there is a good condition sealed strip, you know that one MIGHT be there, not just RPT, but charter possibly. This then determines your height over the top. (2000 AGL). The current procedures require you to transmit from ,say 10 miles out,till you clear the runway in use. Unless there is an AFRU, which responds to your transmission, or someone responds (this is not required or encouraged by the official material) you do not know if you are transmitting, OR on the right frequency. This is not really a satisfactory state of affairs, in my opinion, so I ask for a confirmation that I am being read if I think it is important. It is one thing to know the rules, but you have to make them work for you. Knowing where the traffic might be coming from is helpfull and that comes from experience to a point. A straight-in approach can be less complex and uses less airspace, but presumes radio communication is effective and you should certainly not consider a down-wind landing. (in my opinion). Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes Nev, i agre tottaly.. How many of us have seen RPT doing downwind landings??...ive seen it on numerous occasions.. to many to count, infact i always assume they will land towards the terminal regardless of wind.. Thats why when i hear one in the area i like to just stay out of it untill he has landed.. I saw one at moree once land downwind while various other acft were using the upwind strip.. Just crazy, obviously operational pressure id say..

 

message recieved and understood regarding cct heights...thankyou..

 

cheers

 

 

[Mazda]

Facthunter that is very true regarding some sort of confirmation you are on frequency. Doesn't Taree have an AFRU though? Merv, is that still the case? If there is an AFRU there the airline crew should have been very suspicious if they didn't get the beep. That's another reason they should have checked the frequency.

 

The TCAS obviously only works if other aircraft has a transponder, which not all do.

 

The biggest lesson here is to look out! Radio alerting is a real help but it isn't the only answer. There could be aircraft without radio, on the wrong frequency, or people giving incorrect position reports. I've often heard people saying they are inbound from the south when they are actually heading south (i.e. they are to the north), and I've heard people fudging circuit calls saying they are "turning base" when they are closer to turning final.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda, no Taree doesn't have ctaf afru, but even if it did it wouldnt have alerted the pilots as they were obviously reading the PAL frequency which wouldnt say afru..I made evry attempt to 'see' this guy short of orbiting. I even got the whizz wheel out to work out where he'd be from the controllers advisory that he was 4 minutes from cct at YTRE. but i didnt get time to look down and start spinning the wheel, he was on me in a flash..theres evry chance in the world that this guy had a visual on me the entire time, it would have been nice to hear it from him though, and we could have arranged something..

 

Ive heard alot of wrong calls aswell, especially at yscn, turning base when they are on final and so on.. Seiing is a skill i reckon, and we all can work on it, i know i have been and will continue to do so..

 

cheers

 

 

[Mazda]

Keeping your eyes out of the cockpit when you haven't got the traffic sighted is vital. The whiz wheel is a great tool, but I wouldn't recommend using it when looking out for traffic!

 

 

[Yenn]

A load of good advice here. When you are doing a 1000' circuit and RPT's are also in the circuit, it would be a good idea to keep below their height anywhere in the area and if you must overfly then do it above their circuit height.

 

As facthunter said you are required to put in a report.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda, yep, thats what i was saying, i couldn't take my eyes off the sky for long enough to start whizzing..

 

Yenn.. I slept on it and woke up with the resolve that i must report it.. I have a report in with the RAA and casa and also REX.

 

My contact at the RAA said that we cop so much of this from them (airlines and GA) and we should all report our problems .. so its not so one sided.

 

cheers

 

 

[griffo]

G'day guys,

 

This has been pretty well covered by now. However, as a CPL on those 'other' aircraft and an ex ATS person, I would say that an incident report should be submitted. If you have done that - good for you.

 

The capt should have put one in as well because of his TCAS alert. It is required, and he has another person in the cockpit, so it may well be in his best interest to do so, despite his obvious 'embarassment'...

 

The other possible 'recording' you could chase is the aircraft refueller's if there is one - he may have a recording facility for the CTAF 118.1 for the Taree City Council for landing fee charges.

 

I see from ERSA that charges are collected by AVDATA - however it doesn't hurt to enquire.

 

A valuable lesson nevertheless.......

 

p.s. I had a 'similar' incident many years ago, I was on the base leg for the runway at a country airport in Central QLD, turning Final, and it was such a nice day that I was observing my aircraft shadow during the turn onto Final - when all of a sudden a much larger shadow began to 'merge' with mine. I recognised it immediately as a 'F-27 type' shadow, and immediately called that I was on final for RWY XX, whilst shoving the nose down and turning away from the rwy, - he saw me then - and he went around - and, yes he abused me for not calling on the VHF, and when I told him I had ...he checked his selected VHF freq - and apologised......

 

It can happen to us all at some time I guess - but then that's why there are 2 of them!

 

Regards,

 

Griffo:thumb_up:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

wreford.. I realise the cct height thing..as ive stated, i wasn't overflying, i was 5 miles out.. Now procedure would dictate that i climb to 2000 agl, but this was one of those times where that would have been a bad idea, climbing blindly through an rpt's descent altitudes and hopeing we weren't on converging courses which it turned out we were..

 

Anyway, that casa seminar sounds like the go.. But ive been assured i can't just ask for the tapes and get them,. if an investigation is launched then they can use them, but can't just hand them out to me...

 

cheers

 

 

[markendee]

Lag the idiot in.

 

 

[tvaner]

Sick'em Motz

 

 

[emaroo]

I am a new pilot and like Motz have beeen concerned that if overflying an air field ( which when landing at a new strip I preffer to do) at 1500 AGL you are at the same height as the high performance aircraft. Am I correct? and if so should this be changed so there is a less of a chance of conflict.

 

Also I know it is an extra expense but I guess when flying into aerodromes that have regular RPT it proably worth having a transponder.

 

 

[facthunter]

Procedure.

 

emaroo, the procedure is specified for the FASTER aircraft, not RPT per se., They are supposed to fly the circuit a bit faster and a bit wider and a bit higher so that is the way that we can all operate and maintain separation from each other.(500') (That is the theory). IF you come over at 1500' then you are in conflict with the FASTER category of aircraft, as you will be at HIS/HER circuit height, and they will burn your a##e off, or you might all die. It's that important. An RPT is just another aircraft but watch for the straight-in & downwind take-offs. They should have passed their use-by date anyhow. Nev...

 

 

[Ben Longden]

This is what he means...

 

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

have a good read of the circuit hights in the supplement for naromine that was inserted into the recent RAAus Magazine. find the fault.

 

 

[Ultralights]

dont be afraid to report any incident, i reported the incident i had at Hoxton park a few months back, it was reported to the ATSB and they were more than helpful. they didnt make me feel like i was to blame, just asked for the facts and details, and that was about it.

 

 

[flie43]

Great thread this one, Thanks Motza for your detailed account.

 

To Ben in Shep and anyone in the Wangaratta area, CASA is holding an information night on Wednesday 19th March all about flying into Controlled and Uncontrolled airports-everyone welcome-it's free and a BBQ at the conclusion. There are others in different towns as well, just check CASA's website. Great timing to ask them those tricky questions.

 

Terry

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I have an update on the investigation regarding this event.. I just recieved an email from the rex safety manager. I won't paste the entire email. I must say i am more then happy with there response.

 

Despite several situational challenges which should reasonably have prompted re-assessment of the frequency, the crew did not verify the details of their briefing. It is this failure by Rex crew to manage their inherent human fallibility through appropriate utilization of technical and communication aides that is of particular concern and hence was thoroughly discussed during the formal debrief. The importance of vigilance with respect to AFRU operation (i.e. routine expectation of a signal and critical analysis if/when that signal is not received) was elucidated, as appropriate management of the lack of response from the AFRU in this case would have undoubtedly averted this incident.

 

The report we received from the Jabiru pilot also raised some significant ‘airmanship’ concerns, most notably that the Rex crew “bullied” the operator into an erroneous situation by insisting he communicate on 122.4 (the PAL frequency). These concerns were also discussed with the Captain and he has been reprimanded for his poor conduct as a representative of Regional Express.

 

Outcomes:

 

·Regional Express has submitted a formal report of the event to the ATSB (no contact has been received to date regarding any potential ATSB investigation);

 

·Regional Express was contacted by CASA shortly after the event, and has provided full disclosure of the internal investigation and its outcomes;

 

·A SAAB Operations Notice has been issued to all crew in order to immediately address the ramifications of this event by reinforcing AFRU and CTAF briefing protocol;

 

·An immediate review is to take place regarding explicit instructions in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and Policy and Procedures Manual (PPM) regarding the content of approach briefings for OCTA aerodromes. Where reference is currently made to “frequencies”, we will evaluate the potential benefit of specifically mentioning CTAF distinctly from other frequencies;

 

·The next bi-monthly ‘Rex Group Safety Newsletter’ will contain an analysis of the event (all identifying information will be excluded) in order to provide education to the pilot core of the importance of OCTA frequency procedure compliance and situational awareness; and

 

·A de-identified summary report of the event has been provided to our training department for inclusion in fleet-wide CRM (‘Crew Resource Management’) training.

 

Andrew, many thanks to you for bringing this event to my attention. Safety is our first priority, and always a developing process - your report gave us the opportunity to address a serious procedural failing by this crew, and to provide education and training for the benefit of the rest of our pilot complement.