How to land a 737, like if the pilots cark it

[dutchroll]

Our own Richard Champion de Crespigny

Hmmmm........very fortunate to have the crew he did.

 

 

[Captaincoop]

So many times when there is a late change the FO will ask me to put something in the FMC. So many times I have said "There's the runway, just look out the window" :)

 

 

[facthunter]

They might be trying to show you they use all that is available. The F/O has to fly the plane and please the Captain by guessing what he might like, as well.. Of course they might be "lost without it".

 

Students and Instructors might experience those things too. Fly the plane and worry about what the other guy thinks later.. Then at least what YOU (would) do can be discussed. Nev

 

 

[cooperplace]

Differing training backgrounds. Most of the instructors were ex wartime when I did it . The instruction wasn't perfect but there was discipline. Like props were "live" etc. It's a different generation today. If it isn't digital it's "Passe", No one knows much about physics. I don't know how I would get by without it. They are probably good keen kids but there are a lot of silly ideas out there, and they have to sort the wheat from the chaff.Bennyboy, generally people were behind the plane en route. just rushed and not comfortable for a while. The DC-9 sorted out a lot of piston pilots at command level. It had the speed and performance of a Macchi trainer and the nav system of a DC-6 and was designed for one hour sectors and did Townsville Sydney and Alice Springs Sydney, and even went to Perth till management woke up. You eventually had intake F/O's to take in hand and get experience into. A lot of bloke's hair went white on that plane, and quite a few command failures. Not initial command either. Nev

interesting, I several times did LAX-Chicago as a passenger in DC9s, on United. That must have been at the limit of their range. Not my favorite plane, especially with 5 abreast and I suspect designed for 4, and very noisy especially near the back. I don't miss them at all.

 

 

[facthunter]

They did a pretty good job all things considered. There are quite a few different versions and the last one is designated a Boeing. The DC9-20 was I think the one I flew but it is only shown as DC9 on the licence. I doubt there was anything better around at anything like the operating cost, at the time.. It was considered a good to fly thing, called the Ducati of the Skies by some. The only control function that was powered was the elevator for emergency forward movement. (Pitch down) All others were servo tabbed and had light and good feel. Very good manoeuvering plane. Lots of power with two engines running and they were very reliable P&W JT8's. Self contained stairs made it good for infrequently used aerodromes (Like Gove), Rocky, Mackay Newcastle, Port Hedland. etc Nev

 

 

[cooperplace]

acc. to wikipedia (?reliable?), a DC9-30, like TAA had, had a range of 1923 miles. SYD-PER is about 2050, so they squeezed some more fuel in. Landing on fumes would give you white hair.

 

 

[cooperplace]

They did a pretty good job all things considered. There are quite a few different versions and the last one is designated a Boeing. The DC9-20 was I think the one I flew but it is only shown as DC9 on the licence. I doubt there was anything better around at anything like the operating cost, at the time.. It was considered a good to fly thing, called the Ducati of the Skies by some. The only control function that was powered was the elevator for emergency forward movement. (Pitch down) All others were servo tabbed and had light and good feel. Very good manoeuvering plane. Lots of power with two engines running and they were very reliable P&W JT8's. Self contained stairs made it good for infrequently used aerodromes (Like Gove), Rocky, Mackay Newcastle, Port Hedland. etc Nev

they did an absolutely outstanding job, in my opinion.

 

 

[dutchroll]

You fly with one captain, get a late change, do nothing and he barks "well are you going to put that in the damn FMC or not?"

 

You fly with the next captain, get a late change, go to put it in the FMC and he barks "don't do that, just look out the window!"

 

First Officer job description: Advisor. Counsellor. Social Director. Ar*e Coverer. Chief Diplonat.

 

First Officer Prerequisites: Infinite patience. Subtlety when needed. Bluntness when needed. Humility to admit when you're wrong. Humility to zip your mouth when the Captain finds out he's wrong and you already told him so. Ability to laugh at crap jokes and sound genuine. Ability to nod head looking sincere when Captain expresses political opinion. Ability to nod head looking sincere when next Captain expresses opposite political opinion. Ability to make Captain think better alternate course of action was actually his idea.

 

 

[johnm]

......... but the first officer eventually becomes a captain (more often than not) ................. what changes ? ...................... does the extra money and power make that person a pompous clod (I'd also be guessing all captains are n't pompous clods)

 

 

[cooperplace]

Hmmmm........very fortunate to have the crew he did.

interesting comment....you must have some background info??

 

 

[dutchroll]

My above post was somewhat tongue in cheek but there's an element of truth in it.

 

Some guys change a lot, some not at all. I don't think anybody really knows why (and probably the reasons vary between individuals). Also the guy in charge doesn't fly with other guys in charge, so "the way things are run" can start to diverge a bit. SOPs etc mitigate this but don't eliminate it. Bugalugs in the right seat has to deal with this and some guys make it easy whereas some do not. I've often heard F/Os spoken of as "the world's greatest diplomats" by all ranks and even by hosties!

 

 

 

[dutchroll]

interesting comment....you must have some background info??

Yes.

 

 

[facthunter]

Cooperplace . The DC9 never did SY PH. On some occasions the B727- 276 couldn't go direct and would have to drop into Adelaide if Perth had an alternate. You would often get headwinds of 180 knots. The DC 9 with about 3.5 hours of fuel to exhaustion on full tanks (No Reserve) often required planning to an intermediate airfield and and as the flight progressed the 10% FF reserve reduced and you could legally keep going to where you intended to go. Even so if you filled it with fuel you often left people on the ground so you didn't fill it. Naturally you had to meet the stipulated reserves, but if you encountered icing you would use extra fuel when climbing mainly because of the temperatures more likely to be in the range, at those levels. Nev

 

 

[cooperplace]

Cooperplace . The DC9 never did SY PH. On some occasions the B727- 276 couldn't go direct and would have to drop into Adelaide if Perth had an alternate. You would often get headwinds of 180 knots. The DC 9 with about 3.5 hours of fuel to exhaustion on full tanks (No Reserve) often required planning to an intermediate airfield and and as the flight progressed the 10% FF reserve reduced and you could legally keep going to where you intended to go. Even so if you filled it with fuel you often left people on the ground so you didn't fill it. Naturally you had to meet the stipulated reserves, but if you encountered icing you would use extra fuel when climbing mainly because of the temperatures more likely to be in the range, at those levels. Nev

that's very interesting; those LAX-ORD flights seemed to take forever, around 4hrs. They must have been in MD-80s. I obviously wasn't paying enough attention.

 

 

[cooperplace]

The DC-9 sorted out a lot of piston pilots at command level. It had the speed and performance of a Macchi trainer

what was the 727 like? The DC9 had 2 JT8s, the 727 had 3.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Yes.

that presumably you can't share?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I used to ride in DC9 and B727 almost weekly in my early career, probably with FH at the controls at times (they all cultured distinguished voices like BBC news readers, so I'm not sure)

 

Don't know why, but I much preferred the DC9 to ride in, and booked it whenever possible.

 

In the B727 I often sat mesmerised by the open luggage racks where the outer edge flexed down with every bump, so that you expected any minute the rack was going to let go and spill luggage all over us.

 

 

[dutchroll]

that presumably you can't share?

Well the finer details are no big secret in our company, but you tread a thin line saying stuff in public. I have personally sat down over beers since then and chatted to particular pilots who were in that cockpit.

Look, the Captain did not do a bad job. That's the truth. However he had some very good support along the way.

 

One person who stands out and whose contribution has been way understated in public and in the media, is First Officer (now a Captain) Matt Hicks. Contrary to the way he was portrayed in the TV dramatisation as the goggle-eyed F/O who seemed barely able to speak from shock, while the Captain authoritatively barked orders, by all accounts he was as cool as a cucumber and in fact had the presence of mind to keep everything focused when it could easily have run off the rails a bit. His workload was astronomical given the multiple system failures they had. He had to actually "interpret", rather than simply "do", checklist actions due to these complex multiple failures and try to get some sort of meaning out of the indications they had.

 

The others too made great contributions, but one particular person decided afterwards to head off on paid speaking tours, write a book, etc. That's all fine, but to make out (as the videos of these speaking tours would have you believe) like they single-handedly saved the day and did a whole bunch of unique stuff that you wouldn't normally do in an emergency in a Airbus, well that has left a bad taste in people's mouths. Especially the way much of it was done, the details of which I won't go into. It's not a matter of jealousy I can assure you. The others had no interest whatsoever in "cashing in". It's just a matter of respect. That's where it stands to this day.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Very Interesting....Its good to see something from the other side of the fence not just what the media bash down our throats.

 

 

[johnm]

.............. and its good to see even though we got little ones and they got big ones that they are willing to share their thoughts here

 

 

[facthunter]

what was the 727 like? The DC9 had 2 JT8s, the 727 had 3.

Entirely different planes to fly particularly the longer 276 version. The DC9 -30 flew very much like any plane. Most pilots would have no trouble landing it. Totally conventional flare after closing the throttles.The B 727 stretch had quite a long fuselage, even longer than a B 707-338 with fairly close coupled wings and tailplane and a lot of drag with full flap which could achieve a high sink rate even with a fair amount of power if you let it get even a teeny bit slow. If you pulled the stick back it would crash onto the runway, because of the downforce the tailplane applied and the large rotational inertia of the fuselage. Often easing the stick forward made the landing smooth, (as strange as that seems). The engines were higher output versions of the early motors with about 30% more thrust. They were not high bypass ratio engines and the exhaust made crackling sounds like a whip cracking heard outside the plane as the jet efflux was well supersonic. Not popular with residents around airports. In the early days ,(70's) we used to climb at 330 knots, cruise at M.86 and descend at 350 knots or more if no turbulence. Only the B 747 was a bit faster. It took 20 miles of level flight to slow down to flap speed dropping everything out to do it. Full speed brake and gear down at max speed. You could be at 10,000 feet on downwind and still get in, in the confines of a normal circuit. This is not a normal procedure , but the plane will achieve it easily. Very flexible, when you get to operate it at it's limits. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

Well the finer details are no big secret in our company, but you tread a thin line saying stuff in public. I have personally sat down over beers since then and chatted to particular pilots who were in that cockpit.Look, the Captain did not do a bad job. That's the truth. However he had some very good support along the way.

 

One person who stands out and whose contribution has been way understated in public and in the media, is First Officer (now a Captain) Matt Hicks. Contrary to the way he was portrayed in the TV dramatisation as the goggle-eyed F/O who seemed barely able to speak from shock, while the Captain authoritatively barked orders, by all accounts he was as cool as a cucumber and in fact had the presence of mind to keep everything focused when it could easily have run off the rails a bit. His workload was astronomical given the multiple system failures they had. He had to actually "interpret", rather than simply "do", checklist actions due to these complex multiple failures and try to get some sort of meaning out of the indications they had.

 

The others too made great contributions, but one particular person decided afterwards to head off on paid speaking tours, write a book, etc. That's all fine, but to make out (as the videos of these speaking tours would have you believe) like they single-handedly saved the day and did a whole bunch of unique stuff that you wouldn't normally do in an emergency in a Airbus, well that has left a bad taste in people's mouths. Especially the way much of it was done, the details of which I won't go into. It's not a matter of jealousy I can assure you. The others had no interest whatsoever in "cashing in". It's just a matter of respect. That's where it stands to this day.

I have read the book and I believe that the FO is given all the credit in the book that you obviously believe he should have been given.

 

I have not and am unlikely to watch the doco's or TV shows for the very reason you describe. First priority for TV/Doco's is to sensationalise and make a good story to sell advertising.

 

Also from the book I was led to believe that there was no doubt that every on the flight deck that day contributed to the safe landing of the aircraft.

 

It does however as it should, leave you in no doubt that at the end of the day there was only one PIC and that is as it should be. Had it ended badly there is no doubt where the blame was most likely to be directed.

 

We always see on this forum comments like He was PIC, You were PIC, or You were not PIC how could you know etc.

 

Not having a go at you DR but I found the book to be credible and certainly credit thanks to all involved.

 

 

[facthunter]

The thing is they didn't fight over who was the boss, as far as I know, which often happens. A lot of people worry about loss of face..That plane was in deep $#!t and they were very lucky to survive, but collectively there was a lot of knowledge in that cockpit and it helped. Many other Airline managements concede their crew(s) would not have pulled it off, for various reasons that I won't go into here. pilots who think outside the square aren't really wanted in Airlines. You are supposed to stick to SOP's. No SOP's could have covered this situation. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Not having a go at you DR but I found the book to be credible and certainly credit thanks to all involved.

I do not blame you for being unaware of the inaccuracies in the book and the opinion of other crew members on that book. Nor do I blame anyone at all for being totally unaware of the aftermath. It's not something that people would understand and it's something that the other pilots just want to move on from. Again, I'm being extraordinarily careful here. In private conversation, I am somewhat more blunt.

I'm regretting bringing this up.

 

 

[ben87r]

[ATTACH]26916[/ATTACH]

 

Just found this on FB, seemed fitting.

 

First Officer job description: Advisor. Counsellor. Social Director. Ar*e Coverer. Chief Diplonat.

First Officer Prerequisites: Infinite patience. Subtlety when needed. Bluntness when needed. Humility to admit when you're wrong. Humility to zip your mouth when the Captain finds out he's wrong and you already told him so. Ability to laugh at crap jokes and sound genuine. Ability to nod head looking sincere when Captain expresses political opinion. Ability to nod head looking sincere when next Captain expresses opposite political opinion. Ability to make Captain think better alternate course of action was actually his idea.

I think you may have also forgotten the love of the subjectively larger woman.