Overflying issue with RPT

[motzartmerv]

G'day.. Some comments from members in my thread air rage from rex thread have got me to thinking (may explain all the thunder:laugh:)..

 

The problem thats been plexxing me is in regards to RPT acft landing on the downwind runway and overflying acft..

 

Picture this scenario (its one of the scarey possabilities that could have occured at YTRE between me and the REX acft in question..

 

Imagine i didn't hear this guy letting down on the area frequency and continued to approach and overfly YTRE at 2000 ft AGL (500 above cct height for high performance acft) and selected runway 05 as being the best into wind runway.. So i overfly and descend on the dead side..Now, becasue im at 2000 agl instead of 1500 agl i take my track alittle further out thenn normal to get down to cct height and allow for the extra 500 ft.. I always like to keep the turns in the cct direction so i 180 as im descending to the left..

 

In the meantime REX has arrived and decided (as they so often do) to land downwind towards the terminal which puts his left cct on MY descent or deadside.. I am descending and turning my back to him, he's busy in the cockpit with checklist's and things and doesn't think to lean forward and look UP to my overfly height, and remember we both don't know each other is there..

 

Do i need to say more??

 

Now before you all jump on and say SEE and AVOID, SEE and AVOID, imagine theres another acft, without radio or transponder obeying ctaf rules ... Or indeed imagine my acft didnt have a transponder and the REX guy was on the PAL freq instead of the CTAF..( this happens)

 

Basically what im saying is this..I believe the rules need to be followed by ALL ACFT in ctaf's, ESPECIALLY fast moving big boys.. The cct height and direction thing is designed to allow maximum visability and reduce the chances of conflict in the air because we all know where to focus our attention with regards to traffic..

 

I don't know how we can do it but we need to get these guys to pull there heads in and fly like evryone else...I realise that a 10 knot tailwind is not a huge problem for an acft of that size and performance but thats not the only safty issue in question is it..Its all about location location location..

 

My 2 cents

 

 

[Captain]

Here's another couple of cents too, Motza, as I was intending to raise the following issues if the opportunity arises during the Airservices or CASA Forums at Natfly.

 

 

 

Using your example and say a 10 knot wind coming down 05, all or most other aircraft are limited to using 05. They have no other real option. Yet an RPT will often still undertake a straight in approach on 23 with that wind if he is coming from the NE.

 

 

 

With the early morning sun in the wrong place and an RPT on the wrong frequency ......... I shudder to think.

 

 

 

There appears to me to be an issue with RPT traffic declining to adopt, or refusing to use, a "designated runway" (LATER EDIT ... this should have read "active" runway), and it appears to be just because a straight in approach saves a bit of time and fuel.

 

 

 

Further, even when they are on the right frequency, RPT appear to generally decline to give way to GA or RAA traffic in the circuit, and call straight in, no matter what.

 

 

 

Down here the RPT's from Melb will call straight in on 05 and those from Sydney will call straight in on 23 .......... sometimes at about the same time.

 

 

 

They sort themselves out on the radio and it works OK once you know what is their practice, and you keep out of their way, but it would scare the heck out of a visiting GA or RAA pilot if they are not aware.

 

 

 

Your scenario adds extra wrinkles to the above.

 

 

 

I would like to know what is CASA's and Airservices attitude to the way the RPT's operate and I suspect that it would greatly reduce risk if RPT's were to land into whatever wind there is.

 

 

 

I will be interested to hear the views of others here who have more experience than I.

 

 

 

However if someone invents a light aircraft that will land safely with 20 knots of tailwind, I reckon it would be poor airmanship for that pilot to insist on using that performance to land downwind when everyone else is going the other way.

 

 

 

Cheers Geoff

 

 

[Guest Redair]

This sort of activity sounds really scary... and I didn't even know that things like this were happening, (like I say, so much to learn!) but the real worry as I see it, is that it's only going to take one head-on smash, or even a very near miss, before the press get a hold of the story and in their usual quest to print/broadcast without the facts, will be claiming that a "Catastrophic mid-air crash, (yes I know it will be on the ground, but do you think that fact will get in the way of some exciting fiction?) has been caused by a microlight landing on the wrong runway" And I'm sure we are all well aware of which way the general public will feel when hearing this. The next thing will be restrictions and maybe even banning of recreational flying, through no, or very little fault on our part.

 

I don't have any answers to the problem, other than, there shouldn't be a problem if everyone uses the same circuit procedures.

 

Redair.

 

 

[Wilfred]

It really is going to come down to the need for all recreational aircraft (RAA or GA) to be aware of, monitor and give way to the commercial flights.

 

it our current political climate without the commercial flights you can be pretty sure that the airfield is not far away form being a housing estate.

 

My thoughts

 

peter

 

 

[ahlocks]

REX conduct ten movements (5 out and 5 in) per weekday and six on weekends with Q/Link doing two less each day into and out of Wagga. So there is a fair bit of RPT traffic to mix it up with and fairly regularly.

 

As Geoff has mentioned, you can usually bet London to a brick that Sydney traffic inbound from the northeast will use 23 for arrivals, 05 for departures irrespective of wind direction, provided that it is not blowing a gale, and the Melbourne traffic will use the reciprocals to depart to and arrive from the Southwest. So, up to three RPT can be tracking for straight in approaches to the same runway but onto to the reciprocal ends, and often within a reasonably short period of time. Departures are similar.

 

As you could imagine, this can lead to some confusion as to who is where and doing what and which end of the runway is the active. Most of us littlies will extend downwind, go around or orbit outside of the circuit to accommodate the RPT. We might have right of way in the circuit, but ours cost peanuts to run in comparison so it seems a reasonable thing to do and is definitely appreciated by the majority of RPT crews.

 

I can advise you that orbiting just 300 feet above their circuit height and five miles out upsets their TCAS! Just to be different, one flew a three leg pattern and was a little closer to where I orbit while they make their usual straight in approach. No terse words though, just a polite enquiry if I was still continuing to orbit where I said I was and some suggestions offered for some better options as their TCAS alarm going off was distracting for them. He was then on for a quick chat about how it was all going with the plane.

 

“Overhead Wangaratta tracking for Corowa” sounds very much like “Overhead Wagga Wagga tracking for Cowra”. Especially when transmitted on the Wagga CTAF in a very asian accent. Quite unnerving when you’re inbound toward them and you can’t see them where they say they are! “You should be able to see me” wasn’t the reply I was hoping for when I asked the “aircraft outbound Wagga” for his current location. The REX Melbourne flight figured that one out, bless her cotton socks! There was no agro or judgemental tone to her voice when she suggested that the pilot check his frequency.

 

I’ve found RPT crews are appreciative of us making way for them and they have always been polite in correcting and assisting with errors when I’ve made them - A pleasure to be in the air with. Unfortunately Moz, I think you just tangled with a prick by the sound of it.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[facthunter]

Downwind ops.

 

While the variation in operating costs would favour the idea of always giving way to "biggies", if this is accepted in principle, you are on the back foot, you will be bullied and confused.( How far do you go?) Good airmanship and common sense would dictate that you would not force a go-around when a slight extension down-wind will make the adjustment required, generally, however, I have a great degree of difficulty about the idea of orbitting within the circuit, and would not recommend it, unless required by someone acting in an accepted control capacity.

 

.... with RPT, 10 knots of downwind is considered acceptable, but always at the captains discretion. (I would resist the idea of suggesting that RAAus type aircraft land downwind,( except when uphill) Even BIRDS don't do it).The idea of deliberately landing against the circuit direction already applying to other aircraft already there, would place the onus of safety on the aircraft electing to do so. Mostly you will find that it is done to save time, or to use a longer sealed runway etc. but if that compromises safety, safety should always have priority. The problem can be that if you go beyond the turn-off taxiway to the terminal, you often have to go all the way to the end of the runway to do a U-turn and then backtrack on the runway. (When there is no suitable taxi-way, which is often the case). I believe this matter should be clarified with CASA with a view to getting some direction and consistency, as the current situation is not satisfactory really. Nev..

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

General rule is give way to RPT operations. They are bigger and more experienced than most of us are. If no contact is made off until they have landed. That's my two cents. Yes, I am waiting for bricks to be thrown at me now but them's the brakes. This argument could go on for ages but what's the point? I can just see the sensational headline "Ultralight fails to give way to commercial flight twenty people dead". Reality. Merv, you said yourself they are too busy with the checks and yes they are approaching the circuit area so take that into consideration and avoid the bickering of "I had the right of way".

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Well said Darren.

 

I interpret a number of “incidents” and other complaints on these forums as bordering on attention seeking from GA or ATC.

 

Maybe it post deregulation massive inferiority complex.

 

We have nothing to gain affirming our rights on the boundaries between RAA and GA.

 

Maybe the old saying of staying off the radar should actually be taken literally once in a while

 

 

[ahlocks]

Nev,

 

I’m into the “recreational” part of recreational flying.

 

• I’m flying for pleasure. They are flying because they have to.
   
   
  
• I’m responsible for two lives. They are responsible for thirty or more. Plus a schedule, plus management on their backs about operating costs, and on and on.
   
  

 

 

If I’m on the back foot or get bullied, I don’t give a rat’s bum Nev, ‘cuz I’m still enjoying myself and get to experience that warm and fuzzy feeling from helping make someone else's day a little better. It’s either an offer made to them in advance or the occasional request to extend downwind from them. Hardly bullying tactics. And I’ll emphasise that I’m looking out for my ar$e more than theirs.

 

And as for orbiting within the circuit, I agree. Even though I’ve been informed that a right hand orbit on downwind is acceptable provided you broadcast your intention. But then again, I did say we do them five miles out.

 

Cheers,

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Mazda]

The rule is NOT to give way to them. The regulations actually state that they have to give way to circuit traffic, so in theory they have to give way to us.

 

However, like others on here I'm more inclined to adjust my flight to accommodate them. I try to do this out of courtesy. However those pilots are not the ones paying for fuel, so they should consider the private owners who do. It still costs us to wait, and it sure can compromise safety if we are forced to change circuit direction to accept a tailwind.

 

Merv, as I've said before, your best defence is to look out. Put away your nav gear and concentrate on the circuit. Look above, below, closer, wider, extended legs of the circuit, straight in approach paths. Radio is great and can certainly help in the circuit, but don't think the aircraft on radio are the only ones in the circuit! If there is no Unicom or beep back there's no way of telling that your radio is working either. Saabs are big things, easier to spot than smaller types. They have two crew on board and (again, in theory) they should not have both crew head down in the cockpit.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Mazda, nothing personal but I would hate to argue the fact of not giving way to them should crap hit the fan. They are the rules, yes, but common sense prevails here. As I said in a previous post who do you think they would look at should something go wrong??

 

 

[motzartmerv]

OK, for those a bit busy to read the entire post before replying.. I don't recall mentioning right of way in my original post at all, my post refered to 2 aircraft arriving without being aware of each other when 1 aircract goes against the correct flow of traffic regarding wind direction..of course we all take steps to stay away from the big boys, thats just common sence.. But i don't think acft size matters with regards to rules of the air.. No where does it say give way to your right unless its a huge ass twin engine, then you must always give way..

 

The point was, why should operational considerations (time fuel and $$$) be allowed to overide rules of the air and common cct procedures..??

 

If you think this is attention seeking then just read the jokes thread..

 

I must say im a little dissmatyed at some comments.. If someone has an experiance that others can learn from then isn't that what forums are for??..are we only to talk about the lovely flights we had on a perfect spring day?? and keep the nasty stuff to ourselv'es?? or not put forward serious questions so as not to upset the GA or anyone else.. cause if thats whats wanted by members then so be it.. Ill start a new thread.."my perfect days flying"

 

 

[numptie]

Moruya gets a few REX flights in every day and bank runs etc. Most people down there give way to the RPT. Generally they're very appreciative and usually give a 'thanks JUD' even after they've landed. If, for me, the downside of giving wat to RPT is another 5 minutes in the air, then I'm more than happy to let them in.

 

The thing I don't like is the minority of them who are full of attitude and believe that they legally have right of way just because they're bigger and on a straight in approach.

 

Bob

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I understand what you are saying Merv but this post related to 'giving way to another aircraft' issues so that's why I commented. Fair enough the guy was on the wrong frequency and yes, that is wrong I was just stating common sense stuff in the circuit here. If there is an RPT guy in the circuit who the hell is going to argue with him? It's like saying 'The pedestrian should not be crossing there so I'll hit them'. Who do you think will end up in the slammer? Anyway, no point in arguing. I get in too much trouble for it right Ross? ;)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Darren.. THIS post had nothing to do with giving way, it had to do with 1 simple problem and that is that acft curcuiting on the downwind runway fly straight through the let down position of acft abeying propper cct rules..

 

cheers

 

 

[Mazda]

Darren in the US airline aircraft do not get priority, it is first in first served.

 

The Rex pilots have flown GA too and no doubt realise that a 10 knot downwind in some types is an accident waiting to happen. If I was established in the circuit in such an aircraft, as pilot in command I would not compromise the safety of MY passengers by landing in conditions unsuitable for my aircraft. If I chose to accept the tailwind, the resulting accident would be my fault as PIC.

 

However having said that, if you read my earlier post, you'll see that of course I adjust my circuit to allow them in out of courtesy.

 

Here's one that I thought was a bit rude though - it wasn't RPT but it was a bigger aircraft. I called taxying for a certain runway. No reply. I called entering and backtracking, no reply, circuit clear. I entered and started backtracking, then an inbound Chieftain called up nearby, saying he was going to join for the reciprocal runway. I told him I was already backtracking on the other runway. He joined midfield crosswind for his preferred runway, and I ended up climbing out upwind with him on final - yes, facing me. I had him sighted the whole time and he had me sighted so there was never any chance of us colliding, but I thought it was bl**dy stupid.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Moz,

 

I tried to raise a point that your experience with the RPT pilot was an exeption and not representative of the majority, illustrated with a couple of examples of how well we can ALL get along.

 

It's still a good thread but there just a little bit of drift happening ATM.

 

Cheers!

 

Steven B.

 

Love your yarns BTW.

 

 

[Admin]

[Guest Macnoz]

Am I the only one confused

 

quote from the thread starter ... "Or indeed imagine my acft didnt have a transponder and the REX guy was on the PAL freq instead of the CTAF..( this happens)" I thought this was what HAD happened and was the reason for the first post in the other thread

 

Am I the only ones who has the hairs standing up on his back? Quote from the thead starter

 

"I don't know how we can do it but we need to get these guys to pull there heads in and fly like evryone else..."

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Am I the only one confusedquote from the thread starter ... "Or indeed imagine my acft didnt have a transponder and the REX guy was on the PAL freq instead of the CTAF..( this happens)" I thought this was what HAD happened and was the reason for the first post in the other thread

Am I the only ones who has the hairs standing up on his back? Quote from the thead starter

 

"I don't know how we can do it but we need to get these guys to pull there heads in and fly like evryone else..."

I don't know. Seems like you and I. Maybe I am going stupid putting in too many long hours at work or something. Who knows? All I can say is

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Steven, yep your examples of straight ins are probably a little safer (mabye) then the cct onto the downwind runway.. I reckon anyone on final will see an rpt acft on final or on the runway coming from the other end, presuming of course that they hadn't contacted each other before hand like in the scenario i originally posted..

 

I think Mazda summed it all up, all we can do is lookout lookout..That is our only real garuntee (if there is one) of remaining seperated.. Becasue we obviously can't rely on rules of the air when not all acft are following them..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok.. you see, my acft DID have a transponder, so the rex dude probably knew where i was... so the "scenario" was completly different in more then one respect, we were 5 miles out from YTRE in the "real" incident,... the scenario happens in the cct... the scenario acft doesn't have a transponder..I was talking about the cct guys, the cct..

 

R we still confused, i could probably simplify it more if you need me to..??;)

 

Im a little tired from a stressfull days flyiong cut short by a nasty flashing light in the cockpit of the "fuel pressure" variety.. So tell me why my question about getting them to fly like evryone else got ur backhairs up ??

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Airliners demand higher diligence I reckon

 

 

[motzartmerv]

With evrything eccept cct procedures perhaps??:hittinghead:

 

 

[ahlocks]

Moz,

 

 

 

I dunno if it's categorically safer and we know it's not perfect or in compliance with circuit rules for uncontrolled airfields. The plus is that they can see us on TCAS and I'm happier to continue the approach into or around the circuit when I have a visual fix on them. Especially after having discussed and formed a plan of attack with them. It really is about communicating and keeping a lookout for each other and us recognising that they have operational requirements to meet.

 

 

 

If there is going to be a potential conflict, they either slow their approach or fly a three leg pattern. During my early circuit training, they were very accommodating for me with mistakes and mistiming. Now it's my turn to return in kind.

 

 

 

I still think your REX mate from Taree was a twat though.

 

 

 

Cheers!