I want to fly over built up areas in an EAB

[damiens]

Hi all,

 

I would like to build an appropriately equipped aircraft in VH experimental amateur built category (EAB), it must be allowed to fly over built up areas on occasion.

 

The contention seems to be that that it must have a recognised aircraft engine, but not necessarily be certified.

 

Therefore, can I assume that a Titan or Rotax is fine as they have ASTM certificates.?

 

Where do I stand with a UL Power engine? They currently don’t have an ASTM, but by my view are clearly recognised aircraft engine and have been in the business for many years.

 

Is there a list of recognised aircraft engines that will allow me to happily fly over built up areas like I would in a GA certified aircraft?

 

Calling all SAAA and legislation gurus.

 

Thanks

 

Damien

 

 

[mnewbery]

Background is in AC21.4(2):

 

[/url]https://www.casa.gov.au/file/151881/download?token=2uCN_Fie

 

In Attachent 3 of that document phase 1 (flight testing) refer to item 3.

 

If the EAB aircraft has all the gubbins needed for flight into controlled airspace and it has successfully passes its flight test... It appears to be happy days indeed

 

 

[damiens]

Background is in AC21.4(2):

 

[/url]https://www.casa.gov.au/file/151881/download?token=2uCN_Fie

 

In Attachent 3 of that document phase 1 (flight testing) refer to item 3.

 

If the EAB aircraft has all the gubbins needed for flight into controlled airspace and it has successfully passes its flight test... It appears to be happy days indeed

Thanks for the references.

 

I think I must be missing something here, I can’t see the “happy days”. Section 3 which is part of phase one testing says

 

3. Except for takeoffs and landings, no person may operate this aircraft over densely populated areas or in congested airways.

 

It then says section three relates to phase 2 testing as well.

 

To really confuse things, I am not sure what this has to do with controlled airspace, I thought no flying over densely populated areas was a completely different thing to controlled airspace requirements (although many controlled airports are in densely populated areas).

 

Yep, im still unclear whether I can use UL Power motor in my aircraft to fly over densely populated areas

 

Or

 

Are you saying that once the aircraft has finished testing the restrictions are lifted and no longer apply.

 

 

[aro]

For a VH registered EAB aircraft, the details are in CAR 262AP:

 

(4) A person must not operate an experimental aircraft over the built-up area of a city or town unless authorised to do so under subregulation (5).

 

(5) CASA or an authorised person may authorise a particular aircraft to be operated over the built-up area of a city or town subject to the conditions and limitations CASA or the authorised person considers necessary for the safety of other airspace users and persons on the ground or water.

 

As far as I know there are no specific requirements for engines etc. It is all down to the judgement of the Authorised Person whether it is permitted and what conditions and limitations are applied.

 

If you are planning building and want the ability to fly over built up areas, it would be worthwhile to talk to the SAAA and an AP who could issue the authorisation, and see what they would consider disqualifying. Even if you have a certified engine there can be other reasons the authorisation might be denied, e.g. the particular aircraft design, build issues etc. But the earlier you talk to the AP about what they would require, the better.

 

 

[mnewbery]

Yes! I'm pretty sure that one of those gubbins is a certified aero engine, which UL Power don't make

 

 

[fly_tornado]

none of the military stuff is certified but there are plenty flying over built up areas. I think there is an official prejudice against auto conversions

 

 

[mnewbery]

Another way to look at the legislation would be to start with CASR21 which is where I got the link for the AC above. CASR33 starts on page 225 of the document and says basically what an engine for a very light aeroplane or otherwise, means to be "approved for aviation use".

 

Get used to that phrase.

 

 

[facthunter]

Whatever "single" you fly over houses etc If the engine fails, you are going to crash in amongst houses if you can't glide to a safe place to land and that will be news and expensive and dangerous, for you and others... That's why they have twin engined planes, that cost heaps to operate and are harder to manage. .A certified engine doesn't of itself guarantee reliability, but it's a step in the right direction. Personally it think we should operate out of aerodromes where this is not an issue preferably rather than just hope nothing will go wrong.. Every take off one should brief engine failure and anticipate and plan for best actions at each stage.. We accept that but if we then fly for considerable times over a populous area at say 1500 ft THAT seems a little hopefull or ignorant of the risks. Nev

 

 

[mnewbery]

none of the military stuff is certified but there are plenty flying over built up areas. I think there is an official prejudice against auto conversions

Quote your source. Not civilian certified, for sure

 

 

[fly_tornado]

your wasting your time in canberra mathew

 

[/url]https://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/wellcamp.22942/post-479903

 

 

[aro]

Another way to look at the legislation would be to start with CASR21 which is where I got the link for the AC above. CASR33 starts on page 225 of the document and says basically what an engine for a very light aeroplane or otherwise, means to be "approved for aviation use".

As a rule, the airworthiness standards do not apply to EAB aircraft. No-one is going to certify your EAB aircraft is airworthy or meets any airworthiness standard. That is 100% up to the builder. You can build what you like, and power it with whatever you like. Then it is between you and your AP what restrictions need to be applied in the interests of public safety.

 

For the original question, you definitely need to talk to the SAAA. They have people who are on top of all the details.

 

 

[damiens]

Whatever "single" you fly over houses etc If the engine fails, you are going to crash in amongst houses if you can't glide to a safe place to land and that will be news and expensive and dangerous, for you and others... That's why they have twin engined planes, that cost heaps to operate and are harder to manage. .A certified engine doesn't of itself guarantee reliability, but it's a step in the right direction. Personally it think we should operate out of aerodromes where this is not an issue preferably rather than just hope nothing will go wrong.. Every take off one should brief engine failure and anticipate and plan for best actions at each stage.. We accept that but if we then fly for considerable times over a populous area at say 1500 ft THAT seems a little hopefull or ignorant of the risks. Nev

Yep, I agree with that sentiment for sure. The only spot that springs to mind that fails that test for me is Bankstown, if the wind is from the east. Not a lot of options on take off in most singles, except maybe if i was in the cub and even then it would be very sketchy if I had a problem below 500 ft. Sometimes, there is not a choice, but mostly there is.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

As a rule, the airworthiness standards do not apply to EAB aircraft. No-one is going to certify your EAB aircraft is airworthy or meets any airworthiness standard. That is 100% up to the builder. You can build what you like, and power it with whatever you like. Then it is between you and your AP what restrictions need to be applied in the interests of public safety.

 

For the original question, you definitely need to talk to the SAAA. They have people who are on top of all the details.

As an SAAA technical counsellor I’d suggest it prudent to go a bit further from just talk to SAAA to actually say “ talk to the actual AP that you want to get to do your final certification. “

 

Even with different people in SAAA you may get answers of varying degrees of usefulness none of which carry any weight until you get to the AP. And then what that AP says goes.

 

Be aware that the capacity to sign off for flight over built up areas is an option that not all APs have chosen to have. Personally I would advise not to go with an AP who doesn’t have that capacity because it is one of your final requirements. Start off with the guy who will do everything to the end.

 

If you are going to build it and do it with guidance etc from SAAA ( with the many benefits that offers) then there is an expectation you will find an AP before you start. He/She will set up a file on your build, give the advice you are after regarding the engine choices and issues and give you guidance about it right up to giving special airworthiness certification.