Aircraft down at Leigh Creek

[pmccarthy]

May have circumnavigated the lake? ABC is saying a 4.00pm takeoff and 6.30 accident.

 

 

[jetjr]

discussed elsewhere

 

Fuel at last stop is v expensive, and AC heavy with 2 pax, there were two aircraft, one landed just in front, PAL on, pilot called Mayday, Pax in this aircraft was wife of one in front

 

Very sad

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Terrible news. May get some accurate lead up to the incident detail when the first to land is up to it.. very sad.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have overnighted rather than arrive within 15 mins of last light. You never know what could be on the strip when you arrive. I once found a parawing de rigging right on the centre of the strip and have several times had to drive cattle off the strip.

 

 

[Nobody]

The mandatory latest time of arrival is  10 minutes before last light, which will probably have you landing after sunset in dusk.

 

I haven't seen that in the CASA regulations which only say that a day VFR flight can be done at "night" and  the definition of "night" is:

 

 

 

 

 

Night Flying

 

 

 

Flight time which accrues during the period between the end of the evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is the 10 minutes in the RAAus Ops manual?

 

 

[Teckair]

discussed elsewhere

 

Fuel at last stop is v expensive, and AC heavy with 2 pax, there were two aircraft, one landed just in front, PAL on, pilot called Mayday, Pax in this aircraft was wife of one in front

 

Very sad

 

For me this changes things, big impact no fire. Two flying at night wouldn't want to be trying to explain that one to the investigators. 

 

 

[facthunter]

 Night time varies with altitude re inflight conditions.  In practice similarly a mountain range or stratus clouds to the west will alter the real  "end of Daylight" at any location. Generally in the tropics the twilight effect is almost non existent, whereas in the south it's quite a significant time..Don't neglect fog near the coast. A sea breeze is moist and the air can cool rapidly as the sun goes lower in the sky. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

I haven't seen that in the CASA regulations which only say that a day VFR flight can be done at "night" and  the definition of "night" is:

 

 

 

 

 

Night Flying

 

 

 

Flight time which accrues during the period between the end of the evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is the 10 minutes in the RAAus Ops manual?

 

CASA doesn't say you can, it says you can't unless you are endorsed for IFR or NightVFR, and the aircraft is equipped accordingly.

 

The attachment spells it out

 

The 10 minute deadline for Arrival is a CASA Regulation you have to abide by (you're flying in CASA Airspace, and it's calculated using Airservices charts (Search for AIP General 23 May 2019 Visual Flight Rules.

 

 

 

[poteroo]

May have circumnavigated the lake? ABC is saying a 4.00pm takeoff and 6.30 accident.

 

 

 

On the shrivelled plum site, local refueller says aircraft overhead around last light or just after, ie, 1755-1805, so it then spent another 15-20 mins circling in attempt to get lights on, which was achieved by 2nd aircraft, which landed safely.  For it to arrive at 1755, after having departed Milliam Creek at 1600 - that calculates out to a TT of 1:55, or, an average ground speed of 78 kts. On the wx of the day, it seems most unlikely that they had a 20kt headwind component - making a 'sightseeing' diversion over Maree man or lakes a possibility.  However, it has been commented that both aircraft were in a hurry to leave William Creek, so on that basis, I doubt they made any diversions at all and flew the direct track to Leigh Creek. Knowing they were shaving last light, it is likely that they pushed the power in, and flew at 75-85% power all the way for a TAS of 100+ kts. This should have had them arrive around 1730, which would have been around time of sunset, but with plenty of light, and a 25 min margin to last light. But, the report is that they arrived somewhere around 1800 - so there is an unexplained flight time gap there.

 

Was departure time really 1600, or 1615, or even later?  Did they fly direct, or did they fly the 'I follow railway' track via Maree?   Did they use a higher TAS en route?  

 

On another subject - the manifestly inadequate CASA / RAAus ' 10 minute before last light rule'   Who thought that up?  Most of us were taught to use 30 mins for flight planning, and to ensure this was maintained en route. Even with this margin, many of us have had close shaves.  How can you do this - well, push the throttle in, change altitudes for better gs and if all this fails.....divert while you have choices. I submit that both CASA & RAAus needs to follow their 'on paper' myriad of 'safety' rules and make 30 mins before last light mandatory for flight planning, as it's eminently sensible and it is likely to save lives.

 

A sad event but we need to get a better rule in place to mitigate against miscalculations.

 

 

[Nobody]

CASA doesn't say you can, it says you can't unless you are endorsed for IFR or NightVFR, and the aircraft is equipped accordingly.

 

The attachment spells it out

 

The 10 minute deadline for Arrival is a CASA Regulation you have to abide by (you're flying in CASA Airspace, and it's calculated using Airservices charts (Search for AIP General 23 May 2019 Visual Flight Rules.

 

[ATTACH]39443[/ATTACH]

 

Thanks turbo planner, I didn't know about the 10 minute requirement of AIP ENR 1.2... you learn something everyday....

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Regardless of how they got there, fact is that the pilot was trying to fly an aircraft that is not certified to fly at night.. at night. On Google map the crash site looks like a bit of rising ground. If he was night rated and current, he possibly may have averted the seemingly CFIT which resulted in a totally preventable crash with tragic consequences. Living west of the great divide, over the years I have seen aircraft land at night that should be on the ground well before last light. Some fool themselves into thinking that it won't happen to them... until it does!!

 

 

[onetrack]

Poteroo - The rumour is, that despite "being in a hurry to Leave William Creek", the crash pilot did some Lake sightseeing on the way to Leigh Creek.

 

Thus, "the hurry to leave William Creek" is likely due to the crash pilot thinking he could squeeze in some Lake sightseeing, and still arrive at Leigh Creek on sunset.

 

So that explains the seemingly excessive flight time and slow flight speed from William Creek to Leigh Creek.

 

It's reliably reported a Mayday was called in just prior to crashing, thus the pilot was obviously in deep trouble, and had realised it.

 

Overall a terribly tragic and completely avoidable crash - even if the crash cause is found to be fuel exhaustion, rather than spatial disorientation. Both situations would have been easily avoidable with better judgement and planning.

 

 

[FlyBoy1960]

Lots of good information here.  https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/eerie-facebook-post-hours-before-fatal-leigh-creek-plane-crash/news-story/fd6f1a59f21dcc9791e30f34010da2e9

 

 

[kaz3g]

 

On the shrivelled plum site, local refueller says aircraft overhead around last light or just after, ie, 1755-1805, so it then spent another 15-20 mins circling in attempt to get lights on, which was achieved by 2nd aircraft, which landed safely.  For it to arrive at 1755, after having departed Milliam Creek at 1600 - that calculates out to a TT of 1:55, or, an average ground speed of 78 kts. On the wx of the day, it seems most unlikely that they had a 20kt headwind component - making a 'sightseeing' diversion over Maree man or lakes a possibility.  However, it has been commented that both aircraft were in a hurry to leave William Creek, so on that basis, I doubt they made any diversions at all and flew the direct track to Leigh Creek. Knowing they were shaving last light, it is likely that they pushed the power in, and flew at 75-85% power all the way for a TAS of 100+ kts. This should have had them arrive around 1730, which would have been around time of sunset, but with plenty of light, and a 25 min margin to last light. But, the report is that they arrived somewhere around 1800 - so there is an unexplained flight time gap there.

 

Was departure time really 1600, or 1615, or even later?  Did they fly direct, or did they fly the 'I follow railway' track via Maree?   Did they use a higher TAS en route?  

 

On another subject - the manifestly inadequate CASA / RAAus ' 10 minute before last light rule'   Who thought that up?  Most of us were taught to use 30 mins for flight planning, and to ensure this was maintained en route. Even with this margin, many of us have had close shaves.  How can you do this - well, push the throttle in, change altitudes for better gs and if all this fails.....divert while you have choices. I submit that both CASA & RAAus needs to follow their 'on paper' myriad of 'safety' rules and make 30 mins before last light mandatory for flight planning, as it's eminently sensible and it is likely to save lives.

 

A sad event but we need to get a better rule in place to mitigate against miscalculations.

 

Hi Poteroo

 

i agree in principal.

 

10 minutes is ok for short flights (I’m thinking of a 20 minute flight I did recently from Echuca to Shepp arriving after sunset and before last light) but at least 30 minutes is just common sense for a longer run where headwinds, etc can play havoc with planning.

 

kaz

 

 

[Teckair]

I am a bit out of touch with this can a glass cockpit include things such as AH, HI and GPS? If so are these being found in RAAus aircraft? 

 

 

[derekliston]

I am a bit out of touch with this can a glass cockpit include things such as AH, HI and GPS? If so are these being found in RAAus aircraft? 

 

I have all of that and more on the Dynon Skyview in my CH701 including something called ‘synthetic vision’ I have no idea how that works but when I line up on the piano keys I not only have the view from the windscreen, but the runway, piano keys and runway number are displayed on the screen.

 

 

[Teckair]

I have all of that and more on the Dynon Skyview in my CH701 including something called ‘synthetic vision’ I have no idea how that works but when I line up on the piano keys I not only have the view from the windscreen, but the runway, piano keys and runway number are displayed on the screen.

 

Wow thanks for that. 

 

 

[KRviator]

I am a bit out of touch with this can a glass cockpit include things such as AH, HI and GPS? If so are these being found in RAAus aircraft? 

 

Certainly can. As derek said, SkyView can show all that and a lot more. Here's a subtitled screenshot I put up to show some of my rail-forum mates. What is not shown is the OZRunways overlay available - I was using the Ipad that day, or the IFR GPS interoperability. I use a TSO'd KLN-90B for enroute navigation, that pushes the positive-fix time out to 2 hours, from the normal 30 minutes. You can also see the SynVis concept, instead of a 'standard' AH/EFIS, you have a 3D, digital representation of what you'd see out the window. I'm flying up the coast here, so it's water and flat, but in the hills, you see them, valleys, rivers, etc.

 

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Certainly can. As derek said, SkyView can show all that and a lot more. Here's a subtitled screenshot I put up to show some of my rail-forum mates. What is not shown is the OZRunways overlay available - I was using the Ipad that day, or the IFR GPS interoperability. I use a TSO'd KLN-90B for enroute navigation, that pushes the positive-fix time out to 2 hours, from the normal 30 minutes. You can also see the SynVis concept, instead of a 'standard' AH/EFIS, you have a 3D, digital representation of what you'd see out the window. I'm flying up the coast here, so it's water and flat, but in the hills, you see them, valleys, rivers, etc.

 

 

So, does this write all its data to a file? That would be VERY useful in a post crash investigation.

 

 

[jackc]

I was at the Brumby factory 6 weeks ago, discussing aircraft and options etc. This is the standard instrument layout I was shown.

 

Steam gauges only, are not an option.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

 

 

 

[Downunder]

I am a bit out of touch with this can a glass cockpit include things such as AH, HI and GPS? If so are these being found in RAAus aircraft? 

 

People say, "I prefer steam gauges. I don't like any of that new fangled glass stuff."

 

But really look at the situational awareness it can give you..... as per the above post.

 

The accurate and instant live information available now is pretty miraculous...

 

 

[KRviator]

So, does this write all its data to a file? That would be VERY useful in a post crash investigation.

 

It certainly does. Everything you see and a whole lot more. I think I have mine setup to record everything at 0.5 second intervals, but you can get that down even more. There's even free viewers available online to take your downloaded file and recreate an EFIS presentation if you feed said viewer a Dynon/Garmin file. That being said, people need to want to install stuff like this. SkyView, like Garmins G3X, isn't overly cheap, but for what you get it is lightyears ahead of the latest gear from Boeing or Airbus. Personally, I went a step further and installed an automotive dash camera on the rollbar with GPS built in, so there's a visual record of what happens too.

 

A quick look through a file I downloaded last month from the Dynon shows it records the following:

 

• GPS Fix Quality, date, time & satellites tracked.
   
  
• Lat, Long, GPS Alt, GS & Groundtrack
   
  
• Waypoint name, bearing, XTE, & distance
   
  
• System time
   
  
• Pitch & roll degrees to 1 decimal place
   
  
• Mag heading & turn rate
   
  
• IAS, TAS & VS
   
  
• Pressure alt & Density alt
   
  
• Lateral & Vertical acelleration
   
  
• AoA & OAT
   
  
• Barometer setting
   
  
• Wind direction & speed
   
  
• Heading & altitude bugs
   
  
• CDI source selected, scale & deflection
   
  
• AP mode, engagement status and current servo position
   
  
• Transponder Code, status & IDENT status
   
  
• Oil Press & temp
   
  
• RPM L & R
   
  
• MAP
   
  
• Fuel Press & flow
   
  
• Fuel QTY L & R
   
  
• Bus voltage & sensed amps
   
  
• Hobbs & tach time
   
  
• CHT 1-4 & EGT 1-4
   
  
• Ignition system status (user configured)
   
  
• Calculated % power
   
  
• LOP/ROP status
   
  

 

Other files available show any annunciated warnings, cautions alerts or their triggers in addition to the 'black box' file.

 

People say, "I prefer steam gauges. I don't like any of that new fangled glass stuff."

 

But really look at the situational awareness it can give you..... as per the above post.

 

The accurate and instant live information available now is pretty miraculous...

 

One of the reasons I installed the TSO'd KLN-90 was, in an absolute worst-case scenario, I could load an RNAV approach and fly that down to minimums rather than aimlessly tool about looking for a sucker hole, or worse. It also allows enroute navigation without positive fixes.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Ultra-lights are not all equipped with battery power. So glass panels are not self powered for them.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[dsam]

Here is an example display from my Dynon Skyview.  It drives the autopilot, can utilise a second backup gps source, and the integrated battery backup is 1 hour following aircraft power failure.  It receives my flightplan updates directly via wifi from my iPad with OzRunways or AvPlan. Moving Airservices maps are also regularly updated from either EFB, along with approach plates etc.

 

Situational awareness is plentiful, along with glide ring (offset for calculated winds aloft). Angle of Attack indication is via the Dynon pitot.  Calculated range, and “time at destination” info is always updating during flight.  Virtual “six pack” display is readily available if one prefers.  I couldn’t ask for more in my Eurofox.

 

 

 

 

[Teckair]

Thanks guys will have to look at this on the big screen.