Aircraft down at Leigh Creek

[crashley]

Using Naips on my phone,  takes less than 15 seconds, ( I just checked and timed it )  to get the last light for an airport 

 

we dont need oz runways to tell us  

 

 

[facthunter]

 If you routinely use all the aids to get around you will develop a dependency on them whether you think you will or not. People in a repetitive situation tend to get lazy and cut corners. it's very human to do so.. I've seen this happen with many during my time  "in the game".. and in reports of mishaps. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Probably better to do a flight plan. Do people even do that anymore? If someone needs Oz-Runways to tell them when they will run out daylight they should not leave the circuit area.

 

It's sounding a bit as if Instructors are not taking responsibiity when they train pilots for cross country endorsement.

 

It may not be all, but there are enough comments which show no understanding of what a flight plan is to show that too many have not been trained.

 

I really see this as a problem of the expansion of rag and tube into the plastic fantastics, where people have bought the aircraft, but the administration hasn't changed yet.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I guess everyone knows OzRunways will calculate LL and you can put it up to display along with GS, Track, Brng To, and ETA?

 

Mate just back from a month away in his R44 and said he used it all the way to the Kimberleys and back again across the Centre where there is almost no twilight. Was pretty astonished by conditions at Warburton and parked the R44 inside the motel compound and its razor wire enclosure. Loved the Kimberley’s and got as far as Cape Levique. I’m very jealous!

 

 

[jackc]

It's been reported previously that they are glass panel equipped,but i'll need to check on that.

 

 Can’t order a new Brumby 610 with only steam gauges,  must have glass panel.

 

That was 6 weeks ago when I was at factory.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack.

 

 

[spacesailor]

" If people want to do Aeros, spins, instrument flying & night flying get you PPL & fly GA, "

 

AND higher weight,. GA fly's any weight you want, why move to RAA & not be allowed to fly the way you are used to.

 

GA permits night flying I believe ?.

 

Higher weight with medical & lami maintenance in RAA defeats your purpose.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[dsam]

I guess everyone knows OzRunways will calculate LL and you can put it up to display along with GS, Track, Brng To, and ETA?

 

Quite right Kaz.  Let’s not forget that OzRunways and AvPlan are, in the first instance  flight planning tools, not TSO’d glass panels.  My early ground-schools always emphasised “plan the flight - then fly the plan”.  The software makes comprehensive plans much quicker to create than in the old days, and that most certainly includes departure times, ETE, ETA, LL information.

 

If a pilot strays well away from a planned departure time & track to sightsee, that pilot is not flying the plan!  Prudent airmanship requires re-doing the new flightplan - not a particularly arduous task with modern planning software at one’s fingertips.

 

One additional generalised point - my sincere condolences to the family and friends of the deceased.  This entire thread (which I have also posted to) has made considerable comment and speculation that has not yet been a formal finding of the coroner.  Much of this discussion is a worthwhile learning exercise, but perhaps out of respect to the families of the deceased, and respecting court processes, we should start a new threaded discussion.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

When I suggest Oz-Runways could have a warning about busting last light I am NOT suggesting flight planning etc. should be ignored. I'm old school. I use maps and a compass, steam gauges, ground-speed-distance calculations with a whizz-wheel when I do a nav. I bet half the pilots flying RAAus wouldn't be doing so. Can I ask this; Do you who use Oz-Runways have a track on a map in case your iPad dies?

 

 

[dsam]

Do you who use Oz-Runways have a track on a map in case your iPad dies?

 

Yes, I print a map of my track from OzRunways, along with flight & fuel plan, W&B, ERSA aerodrome pages, etc.  These days I never need them though...

 

I’m an older guy (PPL in 1974) that has enthusiastically embraced everything modern. My panel has a 10” Dynon Skyview with 1 hour battery backup. The panel has another Garmin gps + map with battery backup.  Either gps can drive the autopilot. I fly with 2 iPads and 1phone, all with OzRunways, and AvPlan.

 

Having this many backup devices & software renders old-school ways of steam gauges and whizz-wheels to history in my experience. I’d never go back to that, given a choice... and these days it’s an obvious and easy choice with redundancy of devices.

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I always have a paper map with track drawn on it, and a paper printout of the flight plan.

 

my only gripe with Ozrunways is that it will not print out the plan without heading and times so that you can print it days before and then write the details in when you have downloaded wind and chosen altitude.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I get NAIPS and do my flight plan on the iPad for every flight.

 

if I’m heading away from my comfort zone, I put it all on paper and draw tracks on the appropriate charts...just in case. It’s nice to look at the ground, look at the chart to confirm and then look at the little aeroplane on the screen and confirm again. I have a second iPad and a Garmin as back up.

 

i did my AFR a couple of weeks ago. Took a C172 180hp just to stretch my skills. Did the plan and then put the iPad in the pocket beside me. Flew the plan with clock and compass, 3 turning points, one diversion, some upper air work and a couple of PFLs. Had forgotten how heavy the Cessna becomes in a steep turn...found I really need both hands on the yoke (getting old). Auster is so much lighter..

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Been flying since 1978, then a submitted plan was a requirement even for private ops. When they deleted the mandatory requirement I ceased submitting plans, probably only submitted half a dozen since and that was only because it was an airspace requirement. When I fly now plans can change so I only have a rough plan, really only keep an eye on endurance and the rest takes care of itself.

 

You can overplan with groundspeed and track checks every 10 minutes.

 

 

[dsam]

I always have a paper map with track drawn on it, and a paper printout of the flight plan.

 

my only gripe with Ozrunways is that it will not print out the plan without heading and times so that you can print it days before and then write the details in when you have downloaded wind and chosen altitude.

 

OzRunways does allow the printing of blank lines on the plan sheet as you refer. With the plan sheet displayed, hit the printer icon and look for “Add Blank Lines” tick-box

 

 

[poteroo]

It's sounding a bit as if Instructors are not taking responsibiity when they train pilots for cross country endorsement.

 

It may not be all, but there are enough comments which show no understanding of what a flight plan is to show that too many have not been trained.

 

I really see this as a problem of the expansion of rag and tube into the plastic fantastics, where people have bought the aircraft, but the administration hasn't changed yet.

 

 

 

CASA 'recognise' the RAAus Cross-Country endorsement, (12hrs), as being equivalent to the GA cross-country endorsement for the RPL. The RAAus endo is transferred straight across.  However, at the GA schools I'm familiar with, the RPL cross-country training takes more like 18 hrs, and it covers more subject matter too. So, it appears to me that CASA have been quite 'generous' in allowing this recognition.

 

I'd say that it is less to do with the diligence of the RAAus instructor, and more to do with what can be taught and absorbed in a 12 hr endorsement. I find it difficult to adequately cover the RAAus endorsement in the minimum 12 hrs. From within the ranks at RAAus I'm hearing that it's too long, and therefore too expensive, but honestly, if you are flying about Oz in an aircraft equivalent to a 95-110 kt GA type - then you need good cross-country training.

 

As to just how much modern technology is allowed into the training: that is up to the RAAus and its' instructors. I teach the old and new together so that when doing the paperwork we are cross-checking from one method to the other. Same in the air, where I like to see combination being used. Pilot will always have a back-up that way.

 

 

[James Morgan]

This might clear the air for all those speculating on the accident that occurred at Leigh Creek.

 

I was on final in my Cessna 182 into William Creek when i had to initiate a go around because of the 2 aircraft that have been mentioned had taxied onto the runway 29 at William Creek

 

The time was 4.15 pm. At this time vis on 29 wasn't very good because the sun was already low enough to be in your eyes. To late in the day to be departing for a 150 mile flight in that sort of aircraft

 

 

[kaz3g]

Thank you James.

 

Is there an airstrip at Lockhart...my Aeroclub is always looking for places to fly to for a meal or overnight.

 

kaz

 

 

[James Morgan]

It's not hard to imagine GPS and glass cockpit might be miss used in some cases. I wouldn't be surprised if RAAus is coming to grips with this right now. 

 

Yes kaz there is a very good grass strip just on the North Eastern side of Lockhart. You can walk through the common to town , only about 1klm. I have my own private strip that you can use and its only a nice easy 10klm walk to town

 

James

 

 

[pmccarthy]

That is interesting. I lived in Lockhart for four years as a child and didn't know i could fly there. It is a lovely town of verandas, I would just walk around and reminisce.

 

 

[James Morgan]

It's not hard to imagine GPS and glass cockpit might be miss used in some cases. I wouldn't be surprised if RAAus is coming to grips with this right now. 

 

Hi pmccarthy. Are you the son of the Rural Bank manager that was in Lockhart in about 1964. If so you and i were good buddies and explored the Galore Hill together.Now that we are both pilots it would be good to catch up if this is the case.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Hi pmccarthy. Are you the son of the Rural Bank manager that was in Lockhart in about 1964. If so you and i were good buddies and explored the Galore Hill together.Now that we are both pilots it would be good to catch up if this is the case.

 

Yes it is I. It’s been a few years Jim. I have been flying since 1970! A catch up is definitely in order. I think my brother met you at a reunion some years back. Pm sent

 

 

[kaz3g]

When I suggest Oz-Runways could have a warning about busting last light I am NOT suggesting flight planning etc. should be ignored. I'm old school. I use maps and a compass, steam gauges, ground-speed-distance calculations with a whizz-wheel when I do a nav. I bet half the pilots flying RAAus wouldn't be doing so. Can I ask this; Do you who use Oz-Runways have a track on a map in case your iPad dies?

 

Every time I do a trip.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

When I suggest Oz-Runways could have a warning about busting last light I am NOT suggesting flight planning etc. should be ignored. I'm old school. I use maps and a compass, steam gauges, ground-speed-distance calculations with a whizz-wheel when I do a nav. I bet half the pilots flying RAAus wouldn't be doing so. Can I ask this; Do you who use Oz-Runways have a track on a map in case your iPad dies?

 

 

 

 

...I’m an older guy (PPL in 1974) that has enthusiastically embraced everything modern. My panel has a 10” Dynon Skyview with 1 hour battery backup. The panel has another Garmin gps + map with battery backup.  Either gps can drive the autopilot. I fly with 2 iPads and 1phone, all with OzRunways, and AvPlan.

 

Having this many backup devices & software renders old-school ways of steam gauges and whizz-wheels to history in my experience. I’d never go back to that, given a choice... and these days it’s an obvious and easy choice with redundancy of devices.

 

...until GPS goes down.

 

Keep that paper map handy.

 

 

[dsam]

...until GPS goes down.

 

Keep that paper map handy.

 

The GPS and Glonass systems would both have to go down simultaneously (most unlikely). Perhaps a massive solar event might do that, taking all communication satellites out at the same time - a massive global disruption!

 

My displayed maps wouldn’t “vanish”.  They’d stop moving at my last ‘fix’ and I’d be immediately alerted by my devices of loss of satellites. I remain free to use my displayed maps to consider my intentions for landing - along with the rest of the worldwide aviation fleet!

 

 

[poteroo]

The issue arising from this accident is that pilots are being 'trained' to flight plan on a  10 mins before 'last light'  ETA basis.  Sundown was some 15 mins before official last light, and if we must continue training pilots on this 10 mins nonsense, then it should be 10 before sundown.  I have never ever used the 10 mins advice because it is just the wrong advice. I learnt to use 30 mins before last light, and quite often this has been only just sufficient to land without landing lights.  I'd love to hear a rational explanation of this from our regulators.

 

 

[djpacro]

unless the ETA for the destination (or alternate) is at least 10 minutes before last light 

 

Best time for for a short aerobatic flight is at the end of the day so taking off 20 minutes prior to last light is what I like. 

 

All flight schools that I am aware of have 30 minutes before last light in their Ops Manuals. It seems to me that this rule has changed in Part 91.