HOW TO FLY - No Really!

[onetrack]

Facthunter - Yes - Dust devils, willy-willies, cock-eyed bobs, mini-tornadoes - all the same thing, just different local colourful descriptions.

 

 

[Manwell]

No I’d not be interested at any cost.  I’m afraid I find your style of delivery to be quite off putting and I have been ignoring your posts for the past week or so simply because I do not enjoy or engage with your delivery. I generally do not use the block function and simply ignore or go yeah-nah where I am not engaged.  

 

Dont get me wrong i engage with people on ideas ideas where we will probably never agree and I enjoy considering options and views that others hold because they do inform my knowledge or engage my interest. 

 

I just don’t find you or your method of discussing engaging. 

 

That's to be expected kasper.  Some instructors I flew with were far more annoying than others, and some of those actually knew what they were doing, but not all.  Aviation is extremely unforgiving of personal weakness, and it's never easy to overcome our weaknesses.   

 

I remember a sign in a doctor's surgery on Langkawi Island that said, "Winners do, What losers don't..... want to do."  In other words, to achieve more in life, we just have to be willing to do the things we really don't want to do, but know are best.  In a big picture sense, the world is in it's present state of division and confusion because most of us haven't bothered to do what we know is best.  A lot of that is due to individuals not wanting to do what's best in their personal life, which prevents them from caring about the broader community as their own dramas increase.  Considered in context, each of us are individually and collectively responsible for all the world's problems, but rather than accept responsibility, we delegate that responsibility to others so we can continue on our merry way through life, leaving a swath of destruction behind us.  It's entirely understandable that most don't want to consider that, but that's the difference between children and adults.  It's not just age.

 

 

[Manwell]

So many big words! I'm flabbergasted!

 

As Pauline Hanson said "please explain"

 

I hope you know what he is saying Thruster 88 ?

 

I'm don't think I have the intellectual cognitive dissonance to resonate or validate the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

 

Cognitive dissonance is when you hear something that doesn't resonate with previously learned "knowledge".  Dissonance is the opposite of resonance.  When something resonates with you it's in harmony with previous thinking.  The Dunning-Kruger effect describes how people who are superficial thinkers are MORE sure of their thinking than deeper thinkers, who can see many alternative explanations that fit.  Wikipedia is a good resource for checking out things like that Butch. 

 

 

[facthunter]

Probably referred to as "Selective Perception" in earlier psychology teaching. It's not a new phenomenon. Facts you are uncomfortable with will be rejected or dismissed generally. You tend to see and hear what you like to see and hear and what reinforces you current" comfortable" beliefs.

 

 " Fight or fright" reaction (somewhat ingrained within us), also requires a quick response so genetically we need to react quickly to the obvious rather than deliberate excessively, hesitate and consequently get eaten. Flying situations are not usually best resolved with the instinctive rather then the informed and trained  "managed" response as several alternative ways of managing the situation may be considered with the consequences of each being assessed factually, If the best outcome is sought and likely to be the result. Nev

 

 

[Manwell]

Probably referred to as "Selective Perception" in earlier psychology teaching. It's not a new phenomenon. Facts you are uncomfortable with will be rejected or dismissed generally. You tend to see and hear what you like to see and hear and what reinforces you current" comfortable" beliefs.

 

 " Fight or fright" reaction (somewhat ingrained within us), also requires a quick response so genetically we need to react quickly to the obvious rather than deliberate excessively, hesitate and consequently get eaten. Flying situations are not usually best resolved with the instinctive rather then the informed and trained  "managed" response as several alternative ways of managing the situation may be considered with the consequences of each being assessed factually, If the best outcome is sought and likely to be the result. Nev

 

Correct Nev.  Fight or flight are instinctive responses programmed in the reptilian brain, the most basic and oldest part of the brain.  They worked when we were living in caves, or during times of conflict, but aren't optimal in modern situations like flying.   I think it was the enlightenment period when people first tried to understand the world based on reason, rather than superstition, and behave in accordance with logic, rather than emotion or instinct.  An old aviation adage was declared when an aircraft landed safely to reinforce this concept - "Once again, science and skill have triumphed over ignorance and superstition."

 

Unless societies are eternally vigilant, they end up devolving back into ignorance and superstition, and that's usually a precursor to a cataclysm that forces those societies to correct their thinking.  Cataclysms like accidents, can be avoided if societies or pilots, simply remain connected to reality and don't allow themselves to be fooled into joining the ignorant and superstitious when they're in the minority.  It becomes harder when the majority adopt flawed thinking as true though, and increasingly unpopular for any who dare to warn the deluded.  Voltaire put it succinctly - "It's dangerous to be right when established men are wrong."

 

 

[kaz3g]

Facthunter - Yes - Dust devils, willy-willies, cock-eyed bobs, mini-tornadoes - all the same thing, just different local colourful descriptions.

 

Yes but everything is bigger in WA! ?

 

 

[kasper]

That's to be expected kasper.  Some instructors I flew with were far more annoying than others, and some of those actually knew what they were doing, but not all.  Aviation is extremely unforgiving of personal weakness, and it's never easy to overcome our weaknesses.   

 

I remember a sign in a doctor's surgery on Langkawi Island that said, "Winners do, What losers don't..... want to do."  In other words, to achieve more in life, we just have to be willing to do the things we really don't want to do, but know are best.  In a big picture sense, the world is in it's present state of division and confusion because most of us haven't bothered to do what we know is best.  A lot of that is due to individuals not wanting to do what's best in their personal life, which prevents them from caring about the broader community as their own dramas increase.  Considered in context, each of us are individually and collectively responsible for all the world's problems, but rather than accept responsibility, we delegate that responsibility to others so we can continue on our merry way through life, leaving a swath of destruction behind us.  It's entirely understandable that most don't want to consider that, but that's the difference between children and adults.  It's not just age.

 

Point ... missed.

 

Its not that I’m a child or don’t want to consider your comments.

 

 It’s  just that I find your delivery abrasive, condescending, difficult to separate from near personal attack and basically very unappealing to engage with and when I engage it’s never a pleasant experience.  

 

Please do not consider it necessary to respond to this post - I’ve decided to use the ignore function within the forum software on your profile. 

 

 

[onetrack]

Wikipedia is a good resource for checking out things like that Butch.

 

I beg to differ. Wikipedia is a pretty ordinary resource for information, because of its lack of identification of the person who wrote the bulk of any particular page, and its inability to verify any qualifications of the person who wrote up the page.

 

A large number of Wikipedia pages are open to dispute and accuracy - but unfortunately, many people take everything written on Wikipedia as gospel - because if it's on the 'net, it must be true, eh? 

 

 

[facthunter]

Wikipedia is a great resource but does qualify some of the "contributions" as needing verification or something to that effect. There's plenty of unreliable sources of so called aviation Knowledge. There's also a lot of evidence of lack of basic knowledge or inadequate instruction. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

"A large number of Wikipedia pages are open to dispute and accuracy - but unfortunately, many people take everything written on Wikipedia as gospel - because if it's on the 'net, it must be true, eh?  "

 

I, a child who was taught with the Cane &  brutality, ( demobbed soldiers, Promised a job ).

 

I think the New encloclopedia, Wiki. Is the best of all Tutors,

 

They That Force their Brutality, sexuality, & religion, onto the innocent child, didn't Know it all, & were quite happy to Lie to you, & if questioned, used brutality to mould you to be Obedient.

 

So full kudos to Wiki for a University of Everything !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Thruster88]

I have always found Wikipedia to be very good on aviation. Like when using a calculator it helps to know roughly what the answer will be, is it true or garbage.

 

Just checked "blue line airspeed", another excellent article about all things airspeed.    

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wikipedia is a quick starting point to go off and find real facts; but like Ancestry you are in the hands of the unknown writers,

 

Some spend their life on research for the truth, and spend their waking hours editing Wikipedia "facts" to correct errors.

 

Others use it to peddle lies, and two groups stand out to me;

 

• Environmental extremists who write the story based on lies to suit their purpose.
   
  
• Developers who destroy facts by editing them out, and write versions or show maps which are advantageous to them, and bait for the careless.
   
  

 

[danny_galaga]

L = Cl * A * .5 * r * V^2

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Hard to write math equations on a normal keyboard huh. I wonder if "lift equals Cl times A times half rho V squared " work better....nope it doesn't,

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Manwell, don't be put off by a single negative comment. Personally, I find your comments enlightening and I suspect you are highly educated.

 

We might be the only society ever where the word "academic" is a perjorative term.  

 

 

[Manwell]

Manwell, don't be put off by a single negative comment. Personally, I find your comments enlightening and I suspect you are highly educated.

 

We might be the only society ever where the word "academic" is a perjorative term.  

 

Thanks for the word of encouragement Bruce.  I've been in aviation long enough to develop a thick skin, basically because I don't like to accept anything without proof, even though it would certainly make life easier.   

 

BTW, I'm certainly not an academic, I went as far as Year 12, no tertiary education, excluding flying related training.  Academics are generally "useful idiots".  Academically brilliant, but practically useless.  Did I mention I'm also brutally honest?  Another serious disability.  Having said that, there are some excellent thinkers in academia who end up suffering for their stubborn refusal to tow the establishment line, and would certainly appreciate support from the public instead of blindly accepting whatever the TV says.   A case of the many spoiling it for the few....

 

I beg to differ. Wikipedia is a pretty ordinary resource for information, because of its lack of identification of the person who wrote the bulk of any particular page, and its inability to verify any qualifications of the person who wrote up the page.

 

A large number of Wikipedia pages are open to dispute and accuracy - but unfortunately, many people take everything written on Wikipedia as gospel - because if it's on the 'net, it must be true, eh? 

 

Okay onetrack.  Since you opened up that can of worms, you're right.  I did say it's good for getting information for "things like that" - Cognitive Dissonance, and Dunning-Kruger.  They don't usually whitewash things like that.  If we were interested in information on something more controversial, they consistently run the establishment line and provide clues to the truth in such a way that most will accept as confirmation of the established lie.  However, if you know their biases, they are excellent sources of information on most things, just not if you take everything they say literally.  

 

 

[spacesailor]

"Others use it to peddle lies, and two groups stand out to me;"

 

1/. Which teacher taught you " the English Republic. OR the English pope" ?.

 

2/. spell the pronunciation (word) of the two words "SO & SEW".

 

I had a doctor's certificate to be excused further caning, As my fingers had there tendons CUT almost through !.

 

Welcome to our NEW encyclopedia, WIKI.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Manwell]

I had a doctor's certificate to be excused further caning, As my fingers had there tendons CUT almost through !.

 

Are you being fair dinkum spacesailor?     

 

 

[spacesailor]

I can still show the scars, One teacher delight himself by "Boxing the kids ear's , then giving a cigaret to have the kid blow smoke out of his/her EARS.

 

Another   teacher threw a big bunch of Keys at you, if not paying attention, I lost at least two out of "my" class with kids being Blinded. And another nice scar to remind me of the happiest days of my childhood.

 

I just didn't fit in as I started school at eight years old , without any preschool or Warning.

 

And still can't learn, so No blooody licence for me.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

 Roughly, where was that?  Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

You can be highly educated without formal qualifications. The best example is the Wright brothers, who were far better scientists than their competitor Professor Langley. That's why they succeeded and Langley failed.

 

You can also go too far the other way. There are some lames out there that many of us here could beat in any fair test.

 

If I had my way, the Standards Association would be tasked with administering job qualifications and you would be able to try yourself out by paying a fee and sitting for the tests.

 

 

[hihosland]

I had a good demonstration of how to fly this morning.

 

Over a 300m stretch while I was cycling at around 20kph a

 

magpie doing his Stuka impersonation managed to swoop/bomb

 

me 7 times.

 

First signs of approach is a whistle of air followed by an audible "bang" as

 

he deployed his air brakes. Hard to tell if the noise was purely the bird or

 

partly from a slight impact on helmet or shoulder.

 

Steep climb away into a 45 degree procedure turn finishing with a stall turn

 

and return bomb run;-  another "bang" and he peels off for a neat full stop on

 

a post for a re appraisal of the situation.

 

The repeat as before.

 

Way beyond the abilities of either a Sopwith or a F35.

 

Precision flying par excellence.

 

I 

 

 

[Manwell]

I can still show the scars, One teacher delight himself by "Boxing the kids ear's , then giving a cigaret to have the kid blow smoke out of his/her EARS.

 

Another   teacher threw a big bunch of Keys at you, if not paying attention, I lost at least two out of "my" class with kids being Blinded. And another nice scar to remind me of the happiest days of my childhood.

 

I just didn't fit in as I started school at eight years old , without any preschool or Warning.

 

And still can't learn, so No blooody licence for me.

 

spacesailor

 

That would be a difficult experience to live through and survive intact spacesailor.  Schooling is vastly overrated anyway.  It is literally teaching humans to "school" like fish.  Great if you like the safety of the herd, but not so great when the herd you're in are Lemmings.  I trained an academic once who wanted to fly from BK to PF to deliver a lecture before he'd completed ab initio training.  Hesitantly, I agreed, since he was at least close to finishing basic training, but my concerns were proven after flying the whole way there, and the whole way back.  The silly bugger couldn't hold straight and level accurately for longer than half a minute because he kept getting distracted or trying to complicate things to keep his overactive brain engaged.  Some of them are literally mad, but since they're professors, few are game to call them crazy.  A modern version of The Emperor's New Clothes.  Where was this school anyway?  

 

 

[Manwell]

You can be highly educated without formal qualifications. The best example is the Wright brothers, who were far better scientists than their competitor Professor Langley. That's why they succeeded and Langley failed.

 

You can also go too far the other way. There are some lames out there that many of us here could beat in any fair test.

 

If I had my way, the Standards Association would be tasked with administering job qualifications and you would be able to try yourself out by paying a fee and sitting for the tests.

 

Agreed Bruce.  Some of the best engineers I ever met were amateurs, and hated the bullshit involved in licensing.   And some of the worst pilots I ever knew were highly qualified.   The essential difference is why someone does what they do.  If it's because they love it, they'll eventually be good at it.  

 

If I had my way, I'd apply Douglas "Tin Legs" Bader's advice - "Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men."  In other words, they are a guide for learners, nothing more.  And Flying Inspectors would be wise men/women  chosen by their peers, basically ATOs, but not paid by the user.  Old retired pilots who know how to fly, and don't care about anything else.  Probably impossible the way things are at present, but something to work toward.  

 

 

[facthunter]

The MAD Scientist syndrome is well known. Gyro Gearloose and the "absent minded professor".  who cant post a letter, reliably. come to mind. I can't agree with the criticism of ALL formal education. Good education teaches you to question all that is in front of you (or should). "Tertiary" education is hopefully at THAT level  or it's not aspiring to what it should. You need the BASICs in all things to participate in what comes later when your extra knowledge makes more sense of it all, and the "rote" style of learning is superseded by comprehension. You NEVER know it all. As I say in my avatar "Never stop Learning". I don't. . I'm still learning every day.

 

  I agree you learn most when you are passionately interested in something . Young kids are "naturally " interested in almost everything.  It's a pity to kill off that passion by not having enough time to reply sensibly .Nev.