NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[kgwilson]

Employers who are paying their volunteer fire fighters must be feeling the pinch by now. What government support is there for these people especially if the situation continues for several more months?

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Let's hope that we have a full and independent inquiry into the bushfires and the response to them.

 

This could allow everyone with expertise and experience to have their say.

 

What a great idea, worked rooly well with the banking enquiry...............................what's happened since? SNAFU

 

 

[turboplanner]

Employers who are paying their volunteer fire fighters must be feeling the pinch by now. What government support is there for these people especially if the situation continues for several more months?

 

There is as series of funding steps within State and Federal governments up to disaster level.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A colossal claim. What is your "real world"?

 

Why hold an enquiry? Because we investigate every suspicious death, every accident, every crime, in the hope we can improve our response and avoid bad things happening again.

 

Surely you'd like to find out why this fire season is already worse than most and how we can better manage the next one?

 

The real world is outside this thread.

 

Fire Services discuss their own issues.

 

Police investigate vehicle accidents

 

State Coroners investigate deaths

 

It's usually only after major issues, of multiple shortcomings are found are found that a Royal Commission is launched.

 

As big as the current fires are it looks like the fire services have done an excellent job, and called in extra support where needed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is it right that they should have to beg for it? They also have lives to live and a home situation to maintain. Nev

 

Ah, sorry, I'm slow on the uptake sometimes; now I see what this is all about.

 

For those that don't know, Victoria's CFA (Country Fire Authority) was always a volunteer operation.

 

The government buys a batch of trucks each years, and usually the smaller country goups raise money to buy their old trucks.

 

They also raise money for uniforms and many other things, and they do it very successfully.

 

The Metropolitan Fire Brigade had a fully paid management a staff and were unionised, led by Peter Marshall

 

Their area covered the greater Melbourne area, and as the city spread, the CFA ran fire stations in the outer suburbs.

 

The UFU decided that the CFA should also be unionised and paid, and the Labor government went along with that, and we saw CFA fierfighters campaigining for the LNP at the last State election.

 

The situation is still a very hot potato, with the CFA getting paid management at some stations and a lot of people getting hostile right at the present time.

 

So if you put the Labor spin on it, the CFA volunteers are out there begging. Good luck running around the country fire stations saying that.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...As big as the current fires are it looks like the fire services have done an excellent job, and called in extra support where needed.

 

Nobody is disputing that. The issue is whether we can learn anything from this fire season that might be useful for the next one. I know of people from the fire front who think so. Would you deny them a hearing?

 

 

[M61A1]

A colossal claim. What is your "real world"?

 

Why hold an enquiry? Because we investigate every suspicious death, every accident, every crime, in the hope we can improve our response and avoid bad things happening again.

 

Surely you'd like to find out why this fire season is already worse than most and how we can better manage the next one?

 

Like most enquiries, you will get an answer that everyone already knew and we'll be much poorer and selected experts and lawyers will be much richer.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

So, we should never again inquire into the causes and management of an event, because everyone already knows what happened?

 

That seems to be the trend in several countries, such as Phillipiines and India, where police simply shoot the suspects and everyone celebrates.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Nobody is disputing that. The issue is whether we can learn anything from this fire season that might be useful for the next one. I know of people from the fire front who think so. Would you deny them a hearing?

 

Firefighters have input on all fires in their local areas, at State levels (where I've provided trucks for conferences from time to time) and National levels. It's routine for lessons to be learnt with that active system, and there are the Police systems for vehicle accidents and Coroner reports

 

An example of all of that working together is the aftermath of the Linton fire fatalities where CFA trucks were redesigned with heat shields, seating and fog sprays so crews could sit out the worst of passing fires.   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-01/firefighter-recalls-decisions-that-led-to-death-of-five-men/10562258

 

 

[M61A1]

So, we should never again inquire into the causes and management of an event, because everyone already knows what happened?

 

That seems to be the trend in several countries, such as Phillipiines and India, where police simply shoot the suspects and everyone celebrates.

 

I did say "most", but see if you can find a recent enquiry that you didn't already know what the outcome would be.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Servicing RFS trucks at Gilbert & Roach, Newcastle; a big operation over an extended period requires a big support capacity.

 

(Source: Gilbert & Roach Newscastle/LinkedIn)

 

[Old Koreelah]

Firefighters have input on all fires in their local areas, at State levels (where I've provided trucks for conferences from time to time) and National levels. It's routine for lessons to be learnt with that active system, and there are the Police systems for vehicle accidents and Coroner reports...

 

So all reviews are conducted "in house"?

 

Seems to me that you would be happy if the authorities kept control of all enquiries, lest affected members of the public get to make a contribution.

 

 

[turboplanner]

So all reviews are conducted "in house"?

 

Seems to me that you would be happy if the authorities kept control of all enquiries, lest affected members of the public get to make a contribution.

 

No, all reviews are not conducted "in house"

 

You previously referred to the people at the fire front, so I referred to the processes used by the fire fighters.

 

No, I have no preference for authorities to keep control of all enquiries, and I didn't state that.

 

No, I have no problem with members of the public making a contribution, but after wading in this mess of hypothetical discussion about the use of military personnel for purposes they weren't trained for, in operations they haven't been asked to attend, where the professionals on the scene who ought to know what they require have been quietly going about their business without the assitance of us experts, I'm not going to set off another burst of posts by outling the methods members of the public can use to "make a contribution".

 

 

[Butch]

For those that don't know, Victoria's CFA (Country Fire Authority) was always a volunteer operation.

 

The government buys a batch of trucks each years, and usually the smaller country goups raise money to buy their old trucks.

 

They also raise money for uniforms and many other things, and they do it very successfully.

 

Our CFA fire brigade has just taken delivery of a new Isuzu light tanker.

 

We had to apply for a grant to pay for part of the cost and we had to raise the rest of the money.

 

A lot of our equipment is payed for either by fundraising or sponsored donation ( our local gold mine donates regularly to help us out).

 

What we as volunteers don't like is a union coming in and trying to take control when the system we have works as it is.

 

Put yourself in the situation where you volunteer in the local community and donate your time and effort only to have someone who is well paid with all entitlements ( super, holidays, sick leave, long service and the rest) tell you how to suck eggs.

 

They say that they are only trying to help out, more like trying to push us out !    

 

 

[nomadpete]

Butch, we presently do have

 

Quote:

 

"someone who is well paid with all entitlements ( super, holidays, sick leave, long service and the rest) tell you how to suck eggs"

 

A bunch of us volunteers recently attended a function where we were addressed by well paid  professional head office blokes. Most of the speech could be summarised as 'we're all doing a great job, be prepared, do your training, and well done chaps, but we all have a hard time ahead this summer.' 

 

Then he dodged questions relating to allowing anyone to help by using their own equipment such as using the farm tractor to slash a fire break, or heaven forbid, several professional tree fellers were ordered to always wait for a contract tree feller to be called in, if a tree needed felling, also, that we are not permitted to direct road traffic around a hazard,  etc, etc.

 

This stuff causes resentment in the ranks.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

These are the sort of issues which need airing, uncomfortable and messy though it might be.

 

As previously posted, I know farmers with mobs of experience in managing fires who used their initiative in conjunction with local RFS, only to be stymied by distant bureaucrats; the fire then got out of control and led to the expenditure of massive resources.

 

Our firefighters did a great job, but there were plenty of stuff-ups. That's why we need an open review.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...hypothetical discussion about the use of military personnel for purposes they weren't trained for, in operations they haven't been asked to attend...

 

 This all makes sense, but I suspect you are misrepresenting at least some of these "hypothetical discussions".

 

The idea of some of our military being trained to assist was mentioned, as was the concept of making use of the adaptability of some military aircraft.  Some taxpayers feel entitled to see our expensive defence assets used to actually defend us, rather than to be ever-ready to join the latest American adventure.

 

Why do I burr up over many of your posts? Due to what seems to be your underlying disdain for anyone but the "experts" to have any input.

 

 

[turboplanner]

These are the sort of issues which need airing, uncomfortable and messy though it might be.

 

As previously posted, I know farmers with mobs of experience in managing fires who used their initiative in conjunction with local RFS, only to be stymied by distant bureaucrats; the fire then got out of control and led to the expenditure of massive resources.

 

Our firefighters did a great job, but there were plenty of stuff-ups. That's why we need an open review.

 

Well best you go and tell the fire fighters they stuffed up then; that should get you your open review.

 

 

[onetrack]

Back to the B737 firebomber. It's apparently been deemed far better, than anything we currently have in W.A.

 

We have a large bushfire burning N of Perth, at Yanchep, which has been burning since last Wednesday, and which has caused extensive damage, and it's still continuing unabated.

 

So, the B737 has been sent from the East to sit on standby at Pearce airbase. I'm not sure why you'd send a B737 all that distance, just to have it sit on standby.

 

But this is high-level management we're talking here, so us plebs can only marvel at their skills. I guess they'll all walk around it to check it out, then send it back as "not required". 

 

IMO, the greatest problem we have in the W.A. Fire Authority (currently named DFES - but that name changes every second year, too, simply because it must, to look like you're doing something - is that it's management is run by people slotted in from other local high public-service levels - such as ex-senior coppers.

 

It's rather revealing that during our worst local bushfire disaster (Yarloop), the Fire Service was being managed by a senior ex-copper, who had dubious policing skills, and whose failure to solve a large number of high-level crimes, largely due to policing incompetence, was his main claim to fame.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-15/water-bomber-aircraft-sent-to-join-wa-firefighting-effort/11800970

 

 

[Thruster88]

Although the 737 is branded NSW rural fire service, Coulson may have it written in the contract that they are free to demonstrate their aircraft to other potential customers.  

 

 

[Litespeed]

A good reason to have many 737 fire bombers as assets in each state.

 

Own them not lease

 

Then if needed they are there. If not great its called insurance.

 

 

[onetrack]

The Coulson B737 has been put into service, dropping retardant on the Collie, W.A. bushfire.

 

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N138CG

 

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BMBR138/history/20191215/1000Z/YPEA/YPEA

 

 

[nomadpete]

Without doubt, water bombing is a great asset. It will never replace boots (and rakehoes) on the ground. But it can cool down a fire front enough to allow the firefighters to stand a chance to control the fire (and to survive). I hope that the general public don't develop an expectation that big expensive water bombers can put out bushfires. They don't.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Without doubt, water bombing is a great asset. It will never replace boots (and rakehoes) on the ground. But it can cool down a fire front enough to allow the firefighters to stand a chance to control the fire (and to survive). I hope that the general public don't develop an expectation that big expensive water bombers can put out bushfires. They don't.

 

It's not just the general public; a couple on here think we need dozens of them.

 

One way to look at it that on a fireline several thousand kilometres long aircraft knock out the little stitches next to towns and sometimes houses.

 

 

[SplitS]

Without doubt, water bombing is a great asset. It will never replace boots (and rakehoes) on the ground. But it can cool down a fire front enough to allow the firefighters to stand a chance to control the fire (and to survive). I hope that the general public don't develop an expectation that big expensive water bombers can put out bushfires. They don't.

 

No it is NOT a great asset. It's a huge waste of money but makes for good tv. In anything other than very mild fire conditions it is completely useless. On hot windy days it evaporates before it even reaches the fire, it also creates a large risk for the guy's on the ground. One day someone will be killed by a water bomber then there will be an inquiry and "usefulness" of the bombers will be exposed.  Water bombing is a joke and used to cover up the fact the money should have been spend on fire mitigation measures long before the season started.