NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[robinsm]

I may be cynical, but when NSW (Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong) are  threatened by fires, all the experts come out and try to make a name for themselves.   The country people and regional people have been battling these fires for years without a lot of attention, and doing it well I might add.   Yes the fires are bloody serious and yes the firies are doing brilliantly but the political grandstanding of city folk does not help.   If a pollies country hobby farm, or a CEO from the city's vinyard is threatened then the calls for what can the govt do flow.    The volunteers always done a magnificent job with limited resources.   If the city slickers want to know something, dont askl the pollies, ask the country people who deal with this every year.   (wont happen thopugh because no political mileage to be gained).   Rant over

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Not doing a great job 106 fires with 53 out of control after weeks of fighting these fires. Need 3-4 times more volunteers if they want to get on top of the fires

 

[turboplanner]

Not doing a great job 106 fires with 53 out of control after weeks of fighting these fires. Need 3-4 times more volunteers if they want to get on top of the fires

 

[ATTACH]42687[/ATTACH]

 

The 737 just does selective jobs where other methods aren't as fast or practical.

 

Victoria often has numbers like this in summer; the system shows all fires logged; with the CFA that includes house fires in outer Melbourne.

 

The NSW Assistant Fire commissioner has just said they are hoping to take advantage of todays's NSW to know most of those down.

 

Od course the weather is unpredictable and bad things can happen, but a lot of today's action would be backburning fire brakes then burning back up towards the fires where hundreds of kilometres can be knocked down without the fire trucks having to hit every metre of fireline.

 

 

[robinsm]

Not doing a great job 106 fires with 53 out of control after weeks of fighting these fires. Need 3-4 times more volunteers if they want to get on top of the fires

 

[ATTACH]42687[/ATTACH]

 

They are doing the best they can, with what little they have.   Easy to sit on your computer and criticise.   Have you ever faced a fire and put your life on the line.   People have already died fighting these fires.   Do you have any positive comments or action to assist them?

 

 

[Thruster88]

Not doing a great job 106 fires with 53 out of control after weeks of fighting these fires. Need 3-4 times more volunteers if they want to get on top of the fires

 

[ATTACH]42687[/ATTACH]

 

Bush fires can not be put out with a hose, all the volunteers can do is wait on the edges and try to save property. All of NSW is extremely dry at the moment. Without wide spread good rain the burned area could easily double before summer is over.  

 

 

[mnewbery]

Unfortunately this isn't about aviation but stuff it, I need a rant while referencing that esteemed leftist anti-government mouthpiece, The ABC.

 

If I am reading this article correctly

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-20/hazard-reduction-burns-bushfires/11817336

 

... hazard reduction burns can and could only do so much. The article suggests this time round, conditions are so extreme that hazard reduction burns were not going to make a difference. University of Melbourne associate professor Trent Penman stated in the article [at some point the] "while fuel has a small effect, it is overwhelmed by the weather".

 

So we can blame Bob Carr for locking up the NSW state forests until they were filled to the brim with dry fuel, we can talk about state and federal funding, bad luck, poor back burning conditions ... or dip @fly_tornado in phos-check and use the resultant goopy mess to beat the flames away.

 

If the article is correct, the fire season was always going to be this bad. I believe that new or previously discarded ideas will be investigated. Below is an article on how fires start

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-11-20/bushfire-ignition-source-how-we-know/11701132

 

Only 10% of the fires are listed as "naturally started or "other". I'm not sure what "other" means. Possibly things like discarded ammunition or old reading glasses plus "we really don't know". The rest are people being stupid and can be proactively managed. Fire fighting may need to evolve and I think the things that burn (houses) might need to be changed the same way Cyclone Tracy changed building codes in NT.

 

If anyone hasn't figured it out yet, we (Australia) are officially off the charts this time - The Coulson L100 and 737, the Erickson Aircranes, the Conair Stumpy four - are just the start

 

 

[facthunter]

Lightning definitely starts a lot of fires as there's literally thousands of strikes when an active front goes through and many fires start in remote areas. Idiots still chuck cigarette butts out of car windows. If you pull off the road into even 1 foot grass the Cat converter which is red hot will easily start a fire and then we have the pyromaniac firebugs. Every town has them and they have to be caught in the act.  Then we have the angle grinders and welders and maybe motorbikes without spark arrestors. We have a few months to go yet. It's hellish hot outside.  The temps in the Adelaide Hills make the Firey's job impossible. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

I'm not sure what your message is, Master Newberry.

 

If you believe that the ABC is just a dubious leftwing propaganda machine, why do you quote then in your second reference, to prove a point?

 

Either you believe them or you don't.

 

 

[nomadpete]

By the way, as far as 'leftist, anti-government mouthpieces' go, even our rightwing forumites aren't too trusting of our government's integrity or honesty.

 

 

[mnewbery]

A fair question from @nomadpete. I was poking a bit of fun at the people and organisations who denigrate the journalism of the ABC because it doesn't fit their narrative. It's not about what I believe, people need to make up their own minds about the details presented. In the two articles linked the facts seem to be well considered and various well known subject matter experts quoted.

 

Just because information appeared on the ABC News website, that doesn't point to the information being right, wrong or agenda-driven. 

 

I do believe that one outcome of the current collection of bushfire disasters will be a review of building construction materials and methods in rural and peri-urban areas. I believe the insurance companies will get involved and start making their expectations well known when the review comes

 

 

[nomadpete]

In essence, I believe that all those happy 'periurbanites' should realise and accept that their choice of home location MUST come with a caveat -It WILL cost more to make the 'treechange' home SAFELY habitable.

 

Particularly with respect for fire safety.. They should be paying a premium toward fire fighting organisations, they should have tighter fire resistant specifications imposed on homes. They should have regulated safe areas around buildings. They should (eg: a 10,000 ltrs fire  tank is required in Tas)  have a dedicated minimum amount of water available to defend their buildings.

 

Basically, the home owners should shoulder a large amount of the expense (responsibility), of living in a more hazardous location than would  a true urbanite where bushfires do not normally present a hazard.

 

 

[Litespeed]

That seems a bit rude.

 

Sure codes here in NSW make you have a big tank,pump and fire hose, when a new build is done. My brother sure had to. 

 

He lived in a bush/ farm setting.

 

Making them pay big for fire assistance is dead wrong. By your logic only city dwellers deserve fire assistance. A lot of fire would be there with or without bush blocks. The fires need stopping whether someone lives there or not.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A lot of Victorian people might get a big surprise then.

 

Bushfire Zones were introduced following the Black Saturday fires and extend well into towns and cities where there is a bush or grass fire risk.

 

They don't effect existing dwellings so much, but any new extension or any new dwelling has a much more fore resistant specification.

 

In Victoria, enter your address in the top field of this panel and click for a property report. The report will specify whether you are in a bushfire zone.

 

If you are go to DELP Planning Schemes, select your Council Planning Scheme and look for Bushfire Overlay, and you will get to specifications.

 

https://mapshare.vic.gov.au/mapsharevic/

 

 

[nomadpete]

Quote:/

 

"By your logic only city dwellers deserve fire assistance."

 

No, what I mean, is that City folk very rarely require bushfire fighters. Because they don't live in the bush.

 

Cities rarely lose multiple structures to a single fire, which is a regular outcome of bushfires due to the higher risk posed by locating the buildings too close to very large highly flammable bushland.

 

In this 'user pays'world, why should tree change people avoid proper risk management, and expect others to risk their lives to protect their Greened up tree enclosed (often quite delightful) lifestyle homes?

 

I realise my generalisation doesn't apply to all cases, but there has been a massive number of people moving out to live a better life in more rural settings, and many seem to expect that if there is a sudden danger, that there will always be someone else ready to rush to the rescue. It's the modern mindset.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, what I mean, is that City folk very rarely require bushfire fighters. Because they don't live in the bush.

 

Cities rarely lose multiple structures to a single fire, which is a regular outcome of bushfires due to the higher risk posed by locating the buildings too close to very large highly flammable bushland.

 

This might come as a surprise to the people of Hobart and Canberra as well as many other towns, some of which have been totally wiped out back in our history.

 

There is documentary film of the risk factors of a fire,  pushed by a strong wind entering a city from surrounding grassland and destroying houses for several blocks multiplied by the fire front. Once it hits the houses the first igniting houses produce the radiant heat to take out the next and create a domino effect.

 

In this 'user pays'world, why should tree change people avoid proper risk management, and expect others to risk their lives to protect their Greened up tree enclosed (often quite delightful) lifestyle homes?

 

They do in Victoria; does Tasmania have the equivalent Planning Zones?

 

 

[facthunter]

There's lots of variables in bushfires. Previously rainforests has been assumed to not be vulnerable to fires but with extended dry periods (drought) They are and  even peat swamps become burned and very difficult to extinguish. People who have no REAL experience of fires literally have NO IDEA. How would they?  They would have to be educated.

 

   Heatwave conditions add another element to the scene. Just dropping the ambient, Cool change (or nightfall)  affects the ferocity of the fires and the ability of Humans to do something about it. When you have 47 degrees NO ONE can work effectively outside of a specialised vehicle, and if you are relying on that your life is in a pretty precarious situation. Get strong winds as well, often as a result of the actual fire  HELL on EARTH is an apt description,.  Eucalypts are able to give of highly inflammable vapours where flame will shoot up into the air far above the canopy and spread up cliff faces  and engulf anything in it's path without  warning.. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

relying on small rural communities to control these fires has failed spectacularly. The real impact on regional NSW will be felt when people need to renew insurance on their assets. 

 

 

 

[Litespeed]

Any talk of a user pays system just leads the government to make a bullshite business case to neglect its responsibility.

 

Then it will privatise the whole idea and Fire fighting will be on cost basis plus profit. No cover than you burn.

 

This has already happened in the States for the California Fires. Private fire units only protecting their insured clients. And getting in the way of real fire fighters. 

 

We must remember this is how originally fire services for cities were developed in large numbers and that includes Sydney. It was purely by insurance companies funding, so they might help but only if the fire might then burn a insured property.

 

We can't allow the picking of winners and losers just because it may be less economic or they did not vote LNP. We don't just say that the Army will only defend easy spots but charge money if you live somewhere harder to defend.

 

 

[turboplanner]

relying on small rural communities to control these fires has failed spectacularly. The real impact on regional NSW will be felt when people need to renew insurance on their assets. 

 

[ATTACH]42694[/ATTACH]

 

I'll see if I can find some comparaitve statistics, but in the past we've had fires burning in Victoria for months.

 

I already mentioned the switch to handling a fire like this by backburning fire breaks, where they can fly an aircraft along the upwind fire break boundary at cruise speed dropping ping pong balls, so the strategy can change with the fires.

 

It's not the communities controlling the fires, its the CFS, and it's not even them, it's the CFS backed by shifts of firefighters from all over Australia, New Zealand and the US.   It's a pity one of the journalists hasn't thought to write a story on how big this "army" really is.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Any talk of a user pays system just leads the government to make a bullshite business case to neglect its responsibility.

 

Then it will privatise the whole idea and Fire fighting will be on cost basis plus profit. No cover than you burn.

 

This has already happened in the States for the California Fires. Private fire units only protecting their insured clients. And getting in the way of real fire fighters. 

 

We must remember this is how originally fire services for cities were developed in large numbers and that includes Sydney. It was purely by insurance companies funding, so they might help but only if the fire might then burn a insured property.

 

We can't allow the picking of winners and losers just because it may be less economic or they did not vote LNP. We don't just say that the Army will only defend easy spots but charge money if you live somewhere harder to defend.

 

Has any State Government suggested this?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Re #621

 

NSW CFS information as of today (Figures are hectares burnt)

 

Tianjara: 5000

 

Green Wattle Creek: 185,000

 

Currowan: 131,000

 

Comberton: 200

 

Gospers Mountain: 459,000

 

Grose Valley: 2,000

 

Oalmers Oaky: 3,000

 

Kerry Ridge: 97,000

 

Three Mile: 45,000

 

Ruined Castle: 34,000

 

Inverell: 1,000

 

Singleton: 90,000

 

Kempsey: 146,198,200

 

Total so far: 1,198,200 hectares.

 

In the Black Saturday fire , 1939:

 

Two million hectares were burnt out

 

71 died

 

several towns were destroyed 

 

1300 homes destroyed

 

3700 buildings destroyed

 

 

[fly_tornado]

pretty big fires, Sydney is now blocked off from the rest of Australia apart from the coast road, I wonder how this is going to affect the food supply. One decent accident on the road north of Sydney  and its real disaster

 

 

 

[onetrack]

I can't speak for the Eastern States, because I have no knowledge of those States funding arrangements - but in W.A., we have the Emergency Services Levy, which is a charge applied along with the local Govt rates, to every landowner in W.A.

 

The ESL is set to raise $406M this year, which funding goes towards volunteer and career, fire, rescue and marine rescue groups. When the ESL was first applied in 2003, it brought in $73M.

 

Unfortunately, as with all systems, it still has its flaws, whereby the country volunteer fire brigades still claim they're being shortchanged, as compared to the citys services.

 

https://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/emergencyserviceslevy/Pages/default.aspx

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-15/volunteer-firefighters-want-more-emergency-services-levy-funding/11513688

 

 

[turboplanner]

30 more firefighters in from Canada today.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Based on the Acting PMs comments tonight OK will

 

probably get his Royal Commission.

 

I’d love to read Loxy’s submission after being dealt a burnt out truck, a broken windscreen, and having to ferry trucks halfway round the world, although I’d have to say superlative effort by the CFS.