Litespeed Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Whilst it is commendable that we have firefighters and no doubt the cream of the crop coming to help us, it is just a band aid. 50 or 500 wont help a great deal, without a full commitment by government. We have thousands of kilometers of fire front, we need a well paid and resourced system to fight these and future fires. I bet whilst not suitable for many fires that a fleet of 737 firebombers could still damp down a number of fires allowing resources to meet the greatest need. Been in WA will help for WA but bugger all good for us. It is not just air assets but a whole of response planning and resourcing issue. Comparisons to fires 80 years ago have no real bearing though- even with 2019 tech and comms, we are still in a major problem. And we have a coordinated effort of thousands. A city with 5 million people in its surrounds is at real risk of catastrophic loss. But Scomo is more worried about a holiday from doing bugger all. The Prime Minimal will just try marketing speak his way out of it, Even Lara Worthington (Bingle) said "where the bloody hell are you". It is estimated an extra 300 people died today from health effects of the fire smoke and heat. We won't see that as a headline. Absolutely firkin hopeless. No amount of thoughts and prayers or neo liberal bullsite will solve this.
turboplanner Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 The Prime Minister runs the Commonwealth Government, you need to talk to Gladys. 2
nomadpete Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Since we are primarily relying on volunteers, and there clearly is a shortage of able bodied volunteers available to fight bushfires, can anyone suggest a solution? It's all very well to bring in some (relatively small numbers but much appreciated) international firefighters, but it still isn't anywhere near the number of boots required on the fire fronts.
turboplanner Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Since we are primarily relying on volunteers, and there clearly is a shortage of able bodied volunteers available to fight bushfires, can anyone suggest a solution? It's all very well to bring in some (relatively small numbers but much appreciated) international firefighters, but it still isn't anywhere near the number of boots required on the fire fronts. The people being brought in are likely to be specialists or supervisors so maybe more training in the off season, and more volunteers needed to be trained in the basics. The demand for people can be highly variable,; On Friday 100 fires broke out in South Australia, 23 firefighters have been injured along with some Police in an Adelaide Hills fire. They were all brought under control, but if the weather had gone the other way and hot, dry northerlies had started blowing hard, it might have been a different story with NSW and QLD pulling spare firefighters from SA.
nomadpete Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 I've seen various numbers of firefighters reportedly actively working the fires. I think 1800 was one report. And still obviously way short of what's required to control the present fires. Since even with our aging population providing a boost to the numbers, what can be done to increase the numbers? I suspect the various governments will promise to throw money at the problem. As far as I can see, the majority of bushfire fighters are retirees, and we are all getting more frail, with fewer and fewer young'uns joining up to replace us. In Tas, there is no rural fire service. there is only The Tasmanian Fire Service. We volunteers turn out for all fires, including house fires and factory fires. At least that removes one layer of bureaucracy, but it sometimes puts 70 year olds up on rooftops, etc. 1 1
facthunter Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 With more high rise about, City fire fighting will always require more specialised and expensive land (road ) based equipment. It's very different from bushfires. Arguably in a drought and heatwave together situation ability to extinguish a fire is nearly impossible without rain. Resources concentrate on saving lives and property in that order Cost of Risky areas will definitely become a factor as Cyclones, floods and coastal inundation/erosion will also.. This may affect where people choose to live/farm, operate as it did in SA in the past. Nev 1
turboplanner Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 With more high rise about, City fire fighting will always require more specialised and expensive land (road ) based equipment. It's very different from bushfires. Arguably in a drought and heatwave together situation ability to extinguish a fire is nearly impossible without rain. Resources concentrate on saving lives and property in that order Cost of Risky areas will definitely become a factor as Cyclones, floods and coastal inundation/erosion will also.. This may affect where people choose to live/farm, operate as it did in SA in the past. Nev High rise is interesting; a few weeks ago a very large water main running up the centre of a high rise building burst, and squirted huge amounts of water down over the sides of the building. I'm not sure anyone in the fire industry saw the significance, but there was enough water coming out at enough pressure to break the old paradigm of 7 floors, and enough to fit a ground operated fogging system to put out cladding fires, using the building's own water supply. Many high rise fires could be fought internally also using the building's water supply. Queensland is a good example right now of what you are saying with the drought drying out bush that this time of year is usually the opposite of Victoria's. The Aerial resources are doing just what you say;focusing on lives and property. Risky areas already attract higher insurance premiums. Here in Melbourne, while developers are denying some areas are flood prone, Insurance companies have increased the property's flood insurance by $5,000.00 1
onetrack Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The current fire situation map in NSW. Not looking good for an early reduction in the number of fires. Maybe something good will come out of the bushfires. Maybe the fires in the Barrington Tops NP area will finally uncover the wreckage of VH-MDX. http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=2168b5162d61432c8b3499818a2d60df&extent=150.1575,-33.9201,150.5125,-33.7738 1
nomadpete Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 More likely the fires will remove the last traces of MDX. The thrust of my questions is this: There is a lot of money spent on metropolitan fire fighting - equipment and professional firefighting personnel. That's fine and is a sensible expense for the protection of the people (and structures). The expense is shared among everyone even though only a minority will ever benefit from it. However, when it comes to the protection of rural, or peri-urban people and assets, (or forests, wildlife, etc), the protection is expected to be done on the cheap. We leave the hazardous work to volunteers, often using 'hand me down' trucks and equipment. The expense is begrudged. That seems somewhat illogical in an environment where bushfires are predicted to become an increasing hazard to life and limb, and to even impact on the cost of food for city dwellers. It would be really nice if the problem could be solved by purchasing a couple of Boeing 737's, but that isn't going to fix things.
facthunter Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Most capital is spent on cities. Nothing changes there. The majority of people live near the coast and in the cities Dog knows what will happen to regional and rural areas. Continuing decline I would think. .Looks as though it will turn to desert with a lot of weeds taking over, where there's still enough rain. Nev 2
turboplanner Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Most capital is spent on cities. Nothing changes there. The majority of people live near the coast and in the cities Dog knows what will happen to regional and rural areas. Continuing decline I would think. .Looks as though it will turn to desert with a lot of weeds taking over, where there's still enough rain. Nev Not surprising since the country of Scotland only has 2/3 the population of Melbourne. Regional centres suffer from poor planning by State Governments and the changing income locations. Roma was a tiny town; now it’s Airport is about the size of Adelaide (before the new terminal was built) other centres based on wool are dying, Broken Hill which went from boom to dust is booming again. We’re probably seeing the beginning of the end of the family farm in Australia with conglomerates investing big capital on combined titles.
facthunter Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Nobody wants to live in these places Turbs and they are not getting more attractive with the lack of water. The WHOLE Country has a problem with water. People are and will continue to leave the outback. Less people, Less amenities then less people and on it goes. Nev
fly_tornado Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Without affordable insurance most of regional Australia is going to be abandoned. 900 houses lost so far. That's a big hit for the insurance companies
Thruster88 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Nobody wants to live in these places Turbs and they are not getting more attractive with the lack of water. The WHOLE Country has a problem with water. People are and will continue to leave the outback. Less people, Less amenities then less people and on it goes. Nev Bit of a sweeping statement there Nev, the reason I like living near cowra (two traffic lights) is, my 500ac farm with good income potential, 800m airstrip and nice 4br double brick house cost less than a 2br shoebox in Sydney. The larger towns like Dubbo Parkes Forbes are all going ahead. I would not underestimate the resilience of those who choose to live further west. 1 1 1
pmccarthy Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 As I travel, many country towns are bigger and better than when I grew up. Houses are all repaired and painted, shops open, coffee tastes good. That is the larger towns, with an established base, I accept that smaller towns are dying. I think we just have to accept that. Recent examples were visits to Horsham, Warracknabeal, Broken Hill, Echuca, all looking good. Other towns from my childhood, like Lockhart, not doing so well based on businesses open, but the houses are better maintained. 1
facthunter Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Cowra's a good spot and not really that far out. . Water is going to be a problem or generally THE problem. we can't avoid. Australia is one of the driest Countries in the world and we have really stuffed up our water. Nev
turboplanner Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Interesting interview with David Packham on the ABC this week. David Packham is a scientist who in the past worked with CSIRO as a bushfire researcher. He recently told the ABC that the current fires were not due to climate change and that the former Fire Chief group were being bankrolled by Tim Flannery, so the hyperbole there is quite predictable. He says we must reduce the fuel load by burning in the off season using low-heat methods to protect the tree canopies and animals, just as the aborigines did. He says we know our fire fighting capacity and can easily calculate it thanks to an injection of $12 million research by the Fraser Government which was conducted on the Nowa Nowa fires in East Gippsland in that era. What came out of that research was an understanding of the capacities of fire fighting from the air (using a DC6B), ground, bull dozers, and graders. These methods can control a maximum 3 – 4 Megawatts per metre fire. The Black Saturday Fires reached 70 megawatts per metre, and the current NSW Fires have been around 30 Megawatts per metre. (Which is probably why we have to let the fire go at the downwind edge and try to backburn in front of them.) He says there are 5 elements to a bush or grass fire: · Hot · Dry · Windy · Ignition · Fuel The only element that can be controlled by humans is fuel. The only economic way of controlling fuel is mild fires doing no damage to the crowns of trees. It’s critical not to created enough heat to scorch the earth, and to leave 30% of the burn area for animals to shelter in.
Old Koreelah Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 David Packham is a scientist who in the past worked with CSIRO as a bushfire researcher. He recently told the ABC that the current fires were not due to climate change and that the former Fire Chief group were being bankrolled by Tim Flannery... Crickey, I didn't know Tim Flannery was in the financial league of the Minerals Council, coal lobby, etc. Turbs the rest of your post is well known good advice. 1
turboplanner Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Minerals Council, coal lobby are into fire fighting?
onetrack Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 A fair bit of crap in the article in the Australian, from Flannery and the other alarmists, who believe that shutting coal-fired power stations today, will reverse the currently-dry seasons, almost immediately. I had to laugh at his opinion (which is all it is, it's not backed by any study or studies), that "Perth will become the first Australian Ghost capital, based on its scarce water". He obviously knows SFA about W.A.'s water supplies - which are carefully managed, and extensive (with numerous untapped large aquifers), and all backed by two very large and capable natural gas-fired desalination plants, that have been in operation for several years. There has never been any study or studies provided by anyone - let alone Flannery - that shutting down all the coal-burning operations in the world, is going to reverse rising temperatures and the current low rainfall in Australia - that's if the activists could shut down the majority of coal-burning operations. Remember, there are thousands of coal-burning operations worldwide, and many countries have no intention of shutting them down overnight. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/tim-flannery-climate-group-funding-exfire-chiefs-going-it-alone/news-story/fd55e5bd69cc54288e071d07808438c9 3
kgwilson Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Maybe alarmists are being so to try and draw attention to the issue by our Politicians who still appear to be complete denialists despite providing some lip service to the issue. Climate change & the economy are the 2 biggest issues worrying Australians now. If we reduced our emissions to zero now it would not change anything as the rest of the world continues to generate the same or more emissions anyway. The thing is most countries recognise the problems and are actively working on reductions. We are 57th out of 57 countries for our efforts with a happy clapper PM who believes that divine intervention won't allow failure and an Energy Minister trying to use credits that don't exist from reductions (now long gone) made under labors carbon tax.. Our direct contribution to emissions may only be 1.3% but add the indirect contribution on our coal and gas exports and were are up there with the worst, in 3rd place after Russia & Saudi Arabia. We have to be seen at a national level to be making a real effort. People and private investors are with solar and wind but our Nero fiddles while our Rome burns. 1 2 1 2
turboplanner Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The Commonwealth government has just approved a gas-fired power station for Melbourne. That will tie in with Labor's plan to put solar on the roof of every home.
turboplanner Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 103 fires in Queensland since September were deliberately lit. Police have dealt with 31 adults and 67 juveniles for deliberately setting fires. Source: Brisbane Times December 20.
fly_tornado Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 farmers sneaking in a cheeky bit of land clearing?
turboplanner Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 farmers sneaking in a cheeky bit of land clearing? Doesn't help them. in the next Satellite audit, if the trees haven't regenerated, it's question time.
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