NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[Thruster88]

Wasn’t Clive James part of the group looking for WMD, he was as sure they existed as GWB.

 

He wasn’t the bright spark he was made out to be. His predecessor knew they weren’t there as did blind Freddy.

 

I think you mean Richard Butler he was on the tv every morning for a long time looking for WMD

 

 

[Methusala]

What about the Kurds - these people?

 

Like the Hmong and other hilltop tribes in Vietnam. Used like toilet paper by the US and other western dupes.

 

 

[Methusala]

I think you mean Richard Butler he was on the tv every morning for a long time looking for WMD

 

Hans Blix was another honorable expert who was ignored by the deplorables in the coalition of the killing.

 

 

[turboplanner]

NOBODY seems to care about what happens to them, even now with Turkeys actions against them.. They were poisoned with US supplied gas by Saddam .Blix never found any evidence of WMD. If you consider the gas thing enough on it's own, the scene was never presented THAT way at the time.. Nev

 

The Commander of Iraqi forces in Northern Iraq led the air and artillery attack on the town of Halabja; 5000 were killed on the day, 12,000 more have lost their lives since.

 

Gases used were Mustard and Sarin gas.

 

These gases are included in the Encyclopedia's definition of WMD

 

Iraq obtained Chemical weapons material from Singapore (4515 tons), Netherlands (4261 tons, Egypt 2400 tons, India 2343 tons, Germany 1027 tons.

 

None of this was ever found.

 

"Baby" Bush or the US doesn't get a mention.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

What about the Kurds - these people?

 

[ATTACH]42727[/ATTACH]

 

In a just World - Little Johnny H, Baby Bush and the rest of the Coalition of the Willing would be tried as war criminals.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In a just World - Little Johnny H, Baby Bush and the rest of the Coalition of the Willing would be tried as war criminals.

 

Why? The person responsible for these deaths was tried, convicted and executed.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Why? The person responsible for these deaths was tried, convicted and executed.

 

I presume you are referring to Saddam Hussein - there is no doubt he was a monster. There have been and are still monsters, ruling countries around the World - do we completely trash their countries?  For the most part we only take an interest if there is mineral wealth or strategic consideration.  Don't kid yourself the West entered and trashed Iraq for reason s that had absolutely nothing to do with SH's treatment of his people. Like all dictators SH had another side - his regime was responsible for establishing the best health service in the Arab World, Universities, female education to all levels, civil infrastructure that was the envy of the Middle East, non tribal advancement , a thriving Agricultural industry and relative piece within his country - all gone now.

 

 

[Methusala]

 The linked story below seems to point to the US as the source of chemical weapons used by Saddam (Yes he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard) Hussain in the attack on the Kurds.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

I presume you are referring to Saddam Hussein - there is no doubt he was a monster. There have been and are still monsters, ruling countries around the World - do we completely trash their countries?  For the most part we only take an interest if there is mineral wealth or strategic consideration.  Don't kid yourself the West entered and trashed Iraq for reason s that had absolutely nothing to do with SH's treatment of his people. Like all dictators SH had another side - his regime was responsible for establishing the best health service in the Arab World, Universities, female education to all levels, civil infrastructure that was the envy of the Middle East, non tribal advancement , a thriving Agricultural industry and relative piece within his country - all gone now.

 

No, Ali Hassan al-Majid was the commander. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

 The linked story below seems to point to the US as the source of chemical weapons used by Saddam (Yes he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard) Hussain in the attack on the Kurds.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

 

These proven WMD are not linked directly to Saddam nor the US. I think that’s where a lot of wires get crossed.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

These proven WMD are not linked directly to Saddam nor the US. I think that’s where a lot of wires get crossed.

 

No matter - The US wanted war and its allies fell in to line - as I alluded erlier, our leaders, of the time are one and all war criminals, with the responsibility for deaths of many thousands and the destruction of a whole country and destabilization of an entire region, for no better reason than oil. Unfortunately the "winners" rarely face court.

 

 

[onetrack]

There is basically one arrogant and very powerful man responsible for the Iraq War fiasco - and that bloke is Donald Rumsfeld. Few people understand how much power a Secretary of Defence of the U.S., has.

 

And he was backed by a Christian fundamentalist dill of a President, who kept up the mantra - "That man tried to kill ma Daddy". What more reason could you need, to carry out a disastrous, ill-conceived, and totally unnecessary war?

 

"Cobra II - the Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq" is a worthy read. The review of the book by David Swan is particularly valuable.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation-ebook/dp/B000GCFCK0

 

There were six U.S. Generals who spoke out about the utter incompetence of Rumsfeld, and the associated kow-towing amongst the bulk of the U.S. Military leaders, who acquiesced to Rumsfelds demands and plans.

 

I have little doubt the careers of these six Generals - if they had spoken out against Rumsfelds incompetence and lack of understanding of Iraq culture and tribal alignments, whilst still serving - would have suffered as a result, and they would have been "promoted" to jobs of no consequence.

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/04/donald-rumsfeld-iraq-war

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1408573/That-man-tried-to-kill-my-dad-says-Bush.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

 The linked story below seems to point to the US as the source of chemical weapons used by Saddam (Yes he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard) Hussain in the attack on the Kurds.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

 

This story, by William Lowther of the Daily Mail appears to be undated, but is supported by a similar story by Julian Borger of The Guardian dated January 1, 2003,

 

it is about a visit by Donald Rumsfield, at the time an envoy of President Ronald Reagan to Saddam Hussein on December 19, 20, 1983, 20 years before the 2003 - 2011 Iraq War. At that time Rumsfield was not a member of the US Government.

 

It alleges Rumsfield (and by inference Reagan) made it possible for Iraq to buy viruses including  Anthrax and  Bubonic Plague, in his words "according to the Washington Post."

 

Antrax and Bubonic Plague would qualify as WMD, and were freely talked about for years, but even a Year 10 student would be wondering about how safe these would be in the hands of the average Iraqi soldier, and how, once released, if there was a safe way to disperse them, they could be stopped at the edge of the battlefield. Bubonic Plague, you'll remember raged through the whole of Europe killing around 50 million people in the 14th century.

 

It's interesting that people on Recflying will go nuts  when they read a press story where a Jabiru is called a Cessna, but a press story with no evidence of anyone dying from Anthrax or Bubonic plague is taken as gospel.

 

However, there is no doubt about the number of Kurds killed by the more benign WMD which Iraq obtained in the specific tonnages from the specific Countries (excluding the USA), when the US nd allies attacked Iraq from 2003-2011.

 

I was responding to Facthunter's statement: "They were poisoned with US supplied gas by Saddam", which was not true.

 

 

[Methusala]

Twist & turn, twist & turn. Plausible deniability is the US' stock in trade.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There is basically one arrogant and very powerful man responsible for the Iraq War fiasco - and that bloke is Donald Rumsfeld. Few people understand how much power a Secretary of Defence of the U.S., has.

 

And he was backed by a Christian fundamentalist dill of a President, who kept up the mantra - "That man tried to kill ma Daddy". What more reason could you need, to carry out a disastrous, ill-conceived, and totally unnecessary war?

 

"Cobra II - the Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq" is a worthy read. The review of the book by David Swan is particularly valuable.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation-ebook/dp/B000GCFCK0

 

There were six U.S. Generals who spoke out about the utter incompetence of Rumsfeld, and the associated kow-towing amongst the bulk of the U.S. Military leaders, who acquiesced to Rumsfelds demands and plans.

 

I have little doubt the careers of these six Generals - if they had spoken out against Rumsfelds incompetence and lack of understanding of Iraq culture and tribal alignments, whilst still serving - would have suffered as a result, and they would have been "promoted" to jobs of no consequence.

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/04/donald-rumsfeld-iraq-war

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1408573/That-man-tried-to-kill-my-dad-says-Bush.html

 

Given that this is a forum, and thread drift at that, I was trying to keep it to the 17,000 Kurds who died, who ordered their deaths, that WMD did exist in Iraq (which was why I posted the photo of the graves) and who supplied the 14,546 tons of materials (not the USA).

 

On that basis the US and its allies were justified in going after Saddam Hussain and trying to remove/neutralise the WMD, and were not the criminals they were alleged to be.

 

Having said that, I don't have any problem with what you are saying because, having worked with US companies most of my life, I know that the head of an organisation rarely makes all the decisions and that if you don't quickly identify the internal politics, you're dead in the water, so it doesn't surprise me at all that Generals in a war are left out of the loop and ignored, and stupid decisions are made. 

 

What happened to the WMD?  Well according to an Iraqi professional I deal with, who lived under Saddam, and couldn't get out of there fast enough, those materials were buried, long before the Iraq invasion in 2003.

 

Whether they were hidden or not, while Saddam was operating like a loose cannon he was a much bigger threat with them than without them.

 

You'll remember that the forces didn't encounter a lot of opposition when they invaded Iraq; it was mostly guerilla attacks which were quickly put down.

 

So Saddam didn't have much left in the way of troops, Republican Guard included.

 

Going back to the Gulf War which started with air attacks on January 17, 1991, General Norman Schwarzkopf had amassed 750,000 troops on the ground, but people might remember that despite a lot of press conferences and predictions, nothing much was happening in terms of launching the attack, and that went on for days; in fact the ground campaign didn't start until  February 24, and people were asking why?

 

When the ground assault did start, within 90 hours Schwarzkopf destroyed 42 of 50 Iraqi divisions at a cost of 607 killed and 658 wounded; unbelievably good results for any army, and most people will remember when the army finally got on to the road to Baghdad, and the press were telling us that things would be different when they faced the Republican Guard, and most will remember that the army simply drove into Baghdad.................and stopped, and Schwarzkopf announced that they'd achieved their objective, had liberated Kuwait, didn't need to go into Baghdad, and were all going home, and they did; also something very unusual for a victorious army.

 

What very few people seem to have commented on were the initial chaotic photos on the orad to Baghdad where civilian cars had been driven off the road, parked off the road or bulldozed off the road - what we would expect, then further along neat lines of military vehicles all burnt out; tyres all burnt, interiors all burnt, body structure appearing to be intact, no bodies strewn about which you normally see in a war zone, no military vehicles spearing off at 90 degrees trying to return enemy fire, no vehicles out in the desert trying to escape, just a neat line of vehicles................................

 

 

[turboplanner]

Twist & turn, twist & turn. Plausible deniability is the US' stock in trade.

 

Except that anyone can go to Halabja and count the graves.

 

 

[mnewbery]

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Given that this is a forum, and thread drift at that,ng to be intact, no bodies strewn about which you normally see in a war zone, no military vehicles spearing off at 90 degrees trying to return enemy fire, no vehicles out in the desert trying to escape, just a neat line of vehicles................................

 

Forum ??? Drift ??? Say What ???

 

 

[turboplanner]

Forum ??? Drift ??? Say What ???

 

The full story is too long for a forum and it's not about fire tankers.

 

Before the Americans attacked on the ground, Saddam Hussain is alleged to have done a deal with the US to neutralise his troops provided the US didn't invade Baghdad or take over his government, and there may have been other promises. The US waited until the road was clear then more or less drove to the outskirts of Baghdad with TV coverage all the way. There they stopped, then went home.  Bizarre actions for an army.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Gee, I am pretty sure I saw lots of photos of masses of dead soldiers around burnt out tanks.

 

Lines of tanks killed before they saw the enemy in the desert.

 

Many many thousands of soldiers died, not just pretty media friendly shots.

 

 

[Methusala]

Its called , "The big lie." Otherwise, "Drinking the Cool Aid".

 

 

[nomadpete]

Which bit is the big lie?

 

 

[facthunter]

My recollection is with Litespeeds. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Plenty of photos like this of the tank battle

 

[Litespeed]

If you can't find the death shots they may have been sterilized from the net.

 

A favourite of dictators everywhere. There is no forever on the web, if they want it gone,its gone. 

 

Do not forget the embedded journalists where the only ones with access and they were only shown what the army wanted them to see.

 

Naturally Gulf war 2 had much higher deaths and mostly civilians.  Estimated close to a 200,000 dead. A very low estimate.

 

The coalition of the killing