NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[kgwilson]

I wrote to Malcolm Turnbull when he was prime minister and the government was selling off the C130's to Indoneasia for peanuts.

 

Bugger, if I'd known that at the time I would have offered some macadamias, hazelnuts & walnuts. I could've used the C130 as a hangar.

 

 

[SplitS]

Are you telling me that the pilots of all those contract aircraft have specialist knowledge of each type of fire situation ??? -

 

My sons friend is a navy pilot (choppers) he said he & all his peers were trained to use the water bombing buckets - they are all very frustrated by the Government's refusal to deploy them.

 

C130 & C27 pilots are trained to do low level freight drops - not a huge leap to doing low level water bombing. Their aircraft can operate out of dirt strips and how hard would it be to have  modular "water" tanks loaded into the cargo bay??.

 

C17's  could be delivering fire fighting resources anywhere in Australia, as they are needed

 

Military drivers could be delivering water, men, materials to the fire site.

 

The military could be providing fully resourced camps, food, medical, etc.

 

The Navy could be delivering resources up & down the coast.

 

We the taxpayer provide all these military resources only to leave them standing idle,  but then have to dig a bit deeper again, to pay for contractors to come in and do the job.

 

If your friends son wants to do something useful volunteer to be on the trucks. Using Military helicopters would have about as much effective as dropping 100 dollar bills on the fire only the $100 bills would be cheaper. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Are you telling me that the pilots of all those contract aircraft have specialist knowledge of each type of fire situation ??? -

 

I was very specific about the skills I have and how limited my usefulness was in any other type of fire. There are many different types of fires and many different levels of skills required and many different risks.

 

The Erikson helicopters and the hired heavy aircraft fly both hemispheres so are full time professionals all year round.

 

Smaller helicopters with the drop bags practice a couple of kilometres from here regularly, and I suspect are trained in all types of fires.

 

In spite of this, in the past 12 months we lost one Erikson helicopter that dropped into a dam; there's a specific cause common to this operation which I can't remember but the helicopter loses lift. I also posted on #326 video of an Erikson trapped and only just managing to get away.

 

A small helicopter was also lost this year.

 

 

[facthunter]

This sort of thing seems like a logical idea till you go into the details. The experts have rejected it but do WE know better?. The converted time expired airliners  are basically dirt cheap and can be stripped out of all but essential equipment and modified for the express purpose intended. They don't have to resume the role they previously did and if they get overstressed it's probably,(just hope) it's  OK? till the wings come off. 

 

     Do you want your kids in the forces flying around in beat up ex-fire fighting planes?  Do you want them risking the extreme conditions these pilot's just accept and require very specialised training and risk, for just extinguishing (some) suitable fires. It would be extremely overcapitalising the operation and the real cost would be way above what this is costing now (about $ 2.5Million/unit which is LOW.  If they are as justified as we seem to think they are I'm inclined to think the bigger choppers are more effective, but time will tell. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

This sort of thing seems like a logical idea till you go into the details. The experts have rejected it but do WE know better?. The converted time expired airliners  are basically dirt cheap and can be stripped out of all but essential equipment and modified for the express purpose intended. They don't have to resume the role they previously did and if they get overstressed it's probably,(just hope) it's  OK? till the wings come off. 

 

     Do you want your kids in the forces flying around in beat up ex-fire fighting planes?  Do you want them risking the extreme conditions these pilot's just accept and require very specialised training and risk, for just extinguishing (some) suitable fires. It would be extremely overcapitalising the operation and the real cost would be way above what this is costing now (about $ 2.5Million/unit which is LOW.  If they are as justified as we seem to think they are I'm inclined to think the bigger choppers are more effective, but time will tell. Nev

 

What!!!!!???? Your misrepresentation of what I actually wrote, is astonishing and what sort of logic suggests that leaving your existing resources idle, while you pretty much duplicate them with contract resources, is financially justifiable.

 

There may be some sort of political "logic"/understanding in all this but its certainly not utilising the tax payers dollar to best advantage - otherwise known as misappropriation of funds, a criminal offence.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

In emergencies like this it makes sense for a country to use all resources available and suitable for the task.

 

I believe huge water tanker trucks from nearby mines have on occasion been used against grass fires, but I bet their size makes them unsuited to general use.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In emergencies like this it makes sense for a country to use all resources available and suitable for the task.

 

I believe huge water tanker trucks from nearby mines have on occasion been used against grass fires, but I bet their size makes them unsuited to general use.

 

On Ash Wednesday, Jack Knight, who had a fleet of fuel tankers loaded several semi tankers and took them to the Macedon fire.

 

The water couldn't be used because fuel tankers have completely different decanting designs to the suction side of fire trucks.

 

Even amoung fire trucks great improvements have been made in recent years in getting the various fire services to use compatible equipment.

 

When there's a fire on a day or high wind, and you're fiddling around for 15 minutes, the fire can be past you and gone.

 

Also, it's not just water that's needed, it's quite different delivery systems for different fires; fire fighting is a very specialised business.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Even amoung fire trucks great improvements have been made in recent years in getting the various fire services to use compatible equipment...

 

Compatibility and inter-service co-operation should have been ironed out long ago.

 

We are slow to learn lessons from past stuff-ups.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Compatibility and inter-service co-operation should have been ironed out long ago.

 

We are slow to learn lessons from past stuff-ups.

 

There's a big turnover in people, many are temporary volunteers, there are operational politics, there are government interventions and technical difficulties that make RA look like simple paper planes. All in all they do a great job.

 

 

[NT5224]

HI folks!

 

First, my deepest sympathies for all effected by the terrible bushfires in the southern states, and gratitude to those courageous men and women of the emergency services who give their time and energy and risk their lives to protect us all.

 

I have followed this thread for a bit and now wish to contribute since its a topic close to my heart, and a major part of my lived experience..

 

As some may have noticed, I live in the tropical north which has a totally different fire ecology to the south. Fire prevention and management dominates our thinking and activity for about 9 months of the year. The reality is that I live in the heart of the most fire prone region of Australia. My wife and I actively fight fires at least three times a year, every year.  Because of where we live, there is no rural fire service, no SES and  the government does not offer any support to land holders in event of fire, unless lives are directly at risk. I know this because they sent everybody in our district a letter to this effect. 

 

Here is the essence of what we we have learnt:

 

• In the north, fire seasons are getting longer and fires more frequent and intense. As somebody who lives on the land, I have no doubt that weather patterns are changing and fire risks are intensifying on my country,
   
  
• It is extremely hard to  successfully extinguish bushfires (and impossible with the wind behind them).  We put lots of energy into fighting fires, but always even more energy into preventing them through careful pre-fire season preparation.
   
  
• Our bushfires calender is approximately as follows:    four weeks weeds management, six weeks grading and preparing breaks, six weeks fuel reduction and boundary burns,  and then approximately six months of  monitoring and responding to fire threats.
   
  

 

So I don't fully understand fire ecology or administration down south,  but as a general principle I would say that when the fire is coming across the paddock its too late to start worrying about fire response management. Fire strategies need to be carefully thought through and preparations need to start months before the event to prepare the landscape.

 

Now Im guessing that  could mean things like fuel reduction burns through key corridors and establishing natural and artificial fire breaks. Where I live, our neighbours and ourselves have specific response plans for if fire comes at us from any direction.

 

This is all worked out months in advance, and not in the heat of the moment when decision making could be flawed.  And of course we take the pressure off by having our home and assets protected before the fire season (clearing and burning a few acres around the house and other buildings). 

 

Back to the issue of aerial fire fighting:

 

 I know the bloke who hires Air Tractors out as fire bombers during the season to the government. The government spend  can spend 40-50,000 bucks in a single day on air operations around Darwin. That can go on for weeks.  It may not sound like much compared to down south, but consider the size of our population and economy.

 

I used to share an airfield with the Air Tractors. No doubt they're awesome machines, with fast turn-around times and an ability to operate off rough forward strips. In my opinion a handful of Air Tractors would  be much more effective for fire fighting than a large Jet ( like a 737). However, its a sliding scale. I believe the $50000 you spend each day on Air Tractors would be much more efficiently  spent on  pre-season preventative measures on the ground. Air Tractors and maybe even 737s have their place,  but they shouldn't be considered a primary line of defence.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that governments like them because they are highly visible and newsworthy and make the government look like its 'doing something', but also (in our case), enables them to defer any expenditure on fire until the last possible moment... even although the total costs will be massively higher at the end of the fire season. But 'emergency' expenses can always be written off more easily than maintenance or preventative expenses ( especially with the Commonwealth picking up the tab).

 

Just my thoughts... apologies for rambling

 

Alan

 

 

[skippydiesel]

In emergencies like this it makes sense for a country to use all resources available and suitable for the task.

 

I believe huge water tanker trucks from nearby mines have on occasion been used against grass fires, but I bet their size makes them unsuited to general use.

 

Yeah - in the good old days my work place would supply a 10,000L water tanker & driver to back up the front line fire units (the tanker did not fight the fire directly) - makes their water turn around soooo much faster and therefor way more efficient (a job the army could be doing without any special fire training).

 

 

[SplitS]

Yeah - in the good old days my work place would supply a 10,000L water tanker & driver to back up the front line fire units (the tanker did not fight the fire directly) - makes their water turn around soooo much faster and therefor way more efficient (a job the army could be doing without any special fire training).

 

Still happens. My local council has a 10,000l truck which is dispatched when needed. The armed forces don't even secure their own bases anymore its contracted out. Expecting them to do anything useful other than blow stuff up is a big stretch.

 

 

[onetrack]

Do you want your kids in the forces flying around in beat up ex-fire fighting planes?

 

 

 

 

No, it's much better to have them flying around in military aircraft that have been thrown around the sky, trying to dodge enemy aircraft, AA fire, RPG's, Manpads, etc.

 

Remember when you couldn't get an AWC for any ex-military aircraft, no matter how hard you tried?

 

 

[SplitS]

I have a sneaking suspicion that governments like them because they are highly visible and newsworthy and make the government look like its 'doing something', but also (in our case), enables them to defer any expenditure on fire until the last possible moment... even although the total costs will be massively higher at the end of the fire season. But 'emergency' expenses can always be written off more easily than maintenance or preventative expenses ( especially with the Commonwealth picking up the tab).

 

Just my thoughts... apologies for rambling

 

Alan

 

100% the whole fire bombing thing is a bad joke.

 

What's even worse is the tendering corruption. The air tractor tender is for $3000 an hour plus standby rates. BUT you cannot go and buy a air tractor and submit a tender for say $2500 an hour noooo! You have to be part of the cub. If you are in the "allowed to tender club" you can employ a 120 hour pilot to fly your air tractor. The whole thing stinks.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

There's a big turnover in people, many are temporary volunteers, there are operational politics, there are government interventions and technical difficulties that make RA look like simple paper planes. All in all they do a great job.

 

What's missing is the strong and wise national leadership to achieve commonsense compatibility and cooperation.

 

I certainly agree about the politics.

 

I've seen first hand how a powerful union does underhand things to extend their turf.

 

 

[onetrack]

The various States could have a sizeable number of the old Oshkosh P15 airport fire trucks for very little cost, to substantially upgrade their firefighting armoury.

 

These bad boys hold 23180 litres of water, and the cannon can propel the water for 100M. They do 90kmh on the road and can work in rough terrain.

 

The U.S. military have been selling these off as obsolete surplus, for at least 20 years that I know of (I can recall seeing them on the old DRMO website in 1999).

 

They were being sold for an absolute fraction of their replacement price, and like so many U.S. military assets, most had done very little work.

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

"Come the revolution lads"  and we are in charge, things would certainly be done differently (now where did I leave my Kalashnikov?).

 

There is so much wastage of our (tax) moneys & resources.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What's missing is the strong and wise national leadership to achieve commonsense compatibility and cooperation.

 

I certainly agree about the politics.

 

I've seen first hand how a powerful union does underhand things to extend their turf.

 

We have two separate weather systems in Australia producing two different type of paddock "grass" and two different types of "bush" and at two different times of the year, so I think on this occasion there's no benefit in vertical integration, and the State management is best, with quite a good system in place to call up out of State assistance and overseas assistance, in particular firefighters from NZ and North America.

 

The politics I've been talking about are the internal type, and good luck with ever eradicating that.

 

 

[NT5224]

100% the whole fire bombing thing is a bad joke.

 

What's even worse is the tendering corruption. The air tractor tender is for $3000 an hour plus standby rates. BUT you cannot go and buy a air tractor and submit a tender for say $2500 an hour noooo! You have to be part of the cub. If you are in the "allowed to tender club" you can employ a 120 hour pilot to fly your air tractor. The whole thing stinks.

 

SplitS

 

Yeah I've heard about this. Here in the Top End we only have one supplier for fixed wing so its a monopoly, but competition for rotary wing services is pretty fierce. Its all coordinated by the NAFC apparently. But our NT government also has preferred suppliers. I've heard tales of skullduggery from one of the chopper operators

 

Alan

 

 

[Butch]

Our local CFA area borders Puckapunyal army base, in Victoria.

 

I was a contractor there many years ago.

 

While I was there I saw lots of equipment suitable for fire fighting.

 

They had dozers, graders, water tankers and lots of personnel that could be used in an emergency situation.

 

A few years ago we had a BIG fire between Melbourne and Kilmore in Central Victoria

 

Less than 40 kilometres from the Army base.

 

They could have employed all of their equipment in under an hour.

 

CFA had to round up local contractors  to supply equipment to support units on the ground.

 

Surely as part of defence training they could instruct their personnel on how to assist in protecting the average Australian in a bush fire .

 

I would have thought  it would be easier than teaching them how to blow someone's head off!    

 

 

[facthunter]

All  these old machines are not made new now and it's many years since they were  and they were never mass produced. IF they break down at the wrong time the crew die. It's not just a matter of being late for a cuppa.  These days something is obsolete at 6 years  . Not something I particularly like but that's it. . If you want to restore one and take it to a show that's a different matter but it only has to go there and back on a good road. It's not a fully functioning fire vehicle and all fittings ,etc have to be compatible with others and the fighters familiar with them so they work in actual conditions which are often very far from ideal.  Bit like having bulletts but not centre fire or the right caliber. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

All  these old machines are not made new now and it's many years since they were  and they were never mass produced. IF they break down at the wrong time the crew die. It's not just a matter of being late for a cuppa.  These days something is obsolete at 6 years  . Not something I particularly like but that's it. . If you want to restore one and take it to a show that's a different matter but it only has to go there and back on a good road. It's not a fully functioning fire vehicle and all fittings ,etc have to be compatible with others and the fighters familiar with them so they work in actual conditions which are often very far from ideal.  Bit like having bulletts but not centre fire or the right caliber. Nev

 

Which post are you referring to; you need to use the "quote" button, then we know. Is it trucks, aircraft, or military equipment you are referring to.

 

 

[facthunter]

 The usual stuff Fire ies handle. Trucks pumps tankers hoses.chainsaws  I don't like the "Quote " function as it ends up out of context often. It referred to the  posts just before mine. In the '83 fires near me the radio frequencies didn't match.  These are avoidable stuff ups.. Nev

 

 

[onetrack]

I find the easiest way to quote, is to highlight the sentence you want to respond to, copy it, paste it into your message box - then just add the basic quote/end quote HTML code each end, which is [ quote ] and [ / quote] (with no gaps).

 

 

[facthunter]

Thanks Onetrack, but my computer screen sometimes works like an old kitchen blind where the catch doesn't work. I also mean/ intend a lot of comments to be general rather than specific to ONE particular poster and when I want that I will name them and where necessary indicate the post number. A quote, out of the qualifying context (where it exists) isn't fair to the poster. Nev