NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[SplitS]

You really have to make your mind up S, either the water evaporates and is useless or it hits hard and does damage, which one is it? There are standard operating procedures for water bombing, drops are OK'd from the ground after ground crews cleared. Have you had any "Actual" experience with aerial ops?

 

As far as Canadairs go, they carry 6000 litres for 24 million each!!!! 802's carry 3000 and usually work in Pairs dropping 6000 in one pass, these are privately owned at no expense to Governments except when used.

 

2 separate sentences. In a situation where the fire is crowning the water evaporates before it reaches the fire. In mild conditions when you can get close with  the ground vehicles the water hits hard enough to kill.  So water bombing is useless when it matters and dangerous when it's not really needed.

 

Have you ever been on a fire ground?

 

Have you volunteered for anything?

 

Yes I have been involved with aerial ops.

 

The privately owned aircraft are payed standby rates so they do cost the tax payer whether they are used on not. When in use the 802's are costing $3000 an hour each tended thru a corrupt system that has no real competition for downward price pressure.

 

The drops are OK'd from the command center which can be many km's away from the drop zone and in most cases they cannot see where the drop is taking place. In a fire zone it is very chaotic with limited visibility the fact you think that the drop is safe because someone on the ground ok's them show's you know nothing about this subject.  

 

Arial bombing is useless except when the conditions are mild and then they are not really required. Their extremely limited usefulness does not justify their extreme cost's the money would be way better spent else where. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can remember the old guys arguing that Fire Fighting trucks were a useless waste of money because fire fighters with knapsacks could get in where trucks couldn't go.

 

 

[octave]

http://www.phos-chek.com.au/sites/default/files/CRC Aerial EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY_090806_0.pdf

 

 

[Student Pilot]

2 separate sentences. In a situation where the fire is crowning the water evaporates before it reaches the fire. In mild conditions when you can get close with  the ground vehicles the water hits hard enough to kill.  So water bombing is useless when it matters and dangerous when it's not really needed.

 

Have you ever been on a fire ground?

 

Have you volunteered for anything?

 

Yes I have been involved with aerial ops.

 

The privately owned aircraft are payed standby rates so they do cost the tax payer whether they are used on not. When in use the 802's are costing $3000 an hour each tended thru a corrupt system that has no real competition for downward price pressure.

 

The drops are OK'd from the command center which can be many km's away from the drop zone and in most cases they cannot see where the drop is taking place. In a fire zone it is very chaotic with limited visibility the fact you think that the drop is safe because someone on the ground ok's them show's you know nothing about this subject.  

 

Arial bombing is useless except when the conditions are mild and then they are not really required. Their extremely limited usefulness does not justify their extreme cost's the money would be way better spent else where. 

 

Several things

 

Yes aircraft are paid for standby, the alternative is not to have those aircraft available. Current situation an example, Victorian aircraft could be utilised in NSW which would make them unavailable for dispatch in Vic. Not sure where you got your figures from but SEATs are getting less now than they were 10 years ago and certainly less than you quote, would you recommend to cut costs and maintenance on aircraft that work so hard in hostile conditions? Obviously you don't fly on fires going by your conjecture.

 

Just say your idea is valid that aircraft are useless in most fire situations. Leaving aside attacking the fire. From personal experience I have seen on many occasions where aircraft have been utilised on direct attack on vehicles  and assets under a dire threat. Calls have been from people in vehicles for drops on vehicles, I have seen both foam and retardant used for this, depends whatever the aircraft has on board when the threat is called in. The events I've seen there was no other choices for ground crew intervention. How would you suggest to have aircraft ready for such situations without a standby?

 

Again I don't know where you get your information from, aerial drops are authorised from the fire ground controller on the fire who is also controlling crew, or from an air attack supervisor flying over the fire who is in contact with fire crew and the fire ground controller. NOT from a command centre many kilometres away. If there are no ground crew the aircraft pilot has authority to drop after the usual checks and inspections are made. Aircraft DO NOT just go in willy nilly and drop without checking out the area.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Quite hot here today. We watched in disbelief as the neighbour started his tractor and slashed his paddock, probably two or three acres of long dry grass. Kept the phone handy, the CFA shed is less than one kilometre away.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Quite hot here today. We watched in disbelief as the neighbour started his tractor and slashed his paddock, probably two or three acres of long dry grass. Kept the phone handy, the CFA shed is less than one kilometre away.

 

Unless a total fire ban is in force, he's entitled to do that provided he has a Knapsack mounted to the tractor.

 

Same with hay baling, they're also mowing.

 

Same with heading wheat, oats etc. they are almost always working of dry stubble.

 

 

[Butch]

Unless a total fire ban is in force, he's entitled to do that provided he has a Knapsack mounted to the tractor.

 

Same with hay baling, they're also mowing.

 

Same with heading wheat, oats etc. they are almost always working of dry stubble.

 

He is also entitled to be a Dickhead ! We go to more fires started by slashers and rider mowers than any other cause.

 

I'm with you PM.

 

You can't compare harvesting with slashing, hit one rock with a slasher and you will have a fire.

 

 

[turboplanner]

He is also entitled to be a Dickhead ! We go to more fires started by slashers and rider mowers than any other cause.

 

I'm with you PM.

 

You can't compare harvesting with slashing, hit one rock with a slasher and you will have a fire.

 

Really; you better tell the Councils then, mine is authorising slashing until December 20 which is the closing date for fire breaks.

 

 

[nomadpete]

SOP

 

Our local council roadside slashers and mowers have caused several callouts this year. One fire was quite big and took a lot of work to extinguish.

 

It seems that the inter departmental ignorance problem includes power struggles between councils and fire departments, as well as National Parks and a few others.

 

 

[Butch]

Really; you better tell the Councils then, mine is authorising slashing until December 20 which is the closing date for fire breaks.

 

There's your answer ! one lot of DIKCHEADS telling another lot of DIKCHEADS what to do!

 

I take it you are South of the divide (maybe still green) up hear it's as dry as chips.

 

The local contractors  here slashing the roads have a ute with a fire tank and pump following them slashing due to the fact they were starting too many fires over the past years.

 

Local government should be running a campaign to inform how dangerous mowing and slashing can be in dry weather. As you have said there is no legal reason you can't slash or mow anytime as long as you have 9 litres of water, the machine has spark arrestors and it's not a Total Fire Ban day.

 

We have a lot of blockies coming up from Melbourne that have no idea they shouldn't be mowing dry grass until they start a fire and are surrounded by fire trucks, some even burn rubbish as they are not aware of fire restrictions.

 

They wonder why we get the SH.TS on them!   

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well you should warn us you are talking about your own district.

 

Slashing the roads is not farmers slashing firebreaks on their properties to a specification and timing set by the local Council. Not sure what a “blockie” is but they must be bad.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

You dont know what a "blockie" is ?? wow!

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, and I grew up on the land and am still farming.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Blockie as in owner of block of land, (small land holder now could be hobby farmer) in past may also have been same/similar selector/selection - could be terminology variation between States

 

 

[kgwilson]

Also states what is in their head. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Blockie as in owner of block of land, (small land holder now could be hobby farmer) in past may also have been same/similar selector/selection - could be terminology variation between States

 

Around here a few call themselves hobby farmers but otherwise there’s no distinction. Regarding fires they are required to cut a six metre firebreak inside their boundary fence if they are grazing animals otherwise they have to cut the whole property.

 

 

[Butch]

Well you should warn us you are talking about your own district.

 

Slashing the roads is not farmers slashing firebreaks on their properties to a specification and timing set by the local Council. Not sure what a “blockie” is but they must be bad

 

A blockie is someone from out of town that has a small block of land under 40 odd acres that only comes up on weekends.

 

As to slashing fire breaks around properties this usual only applies to small properties (larger properties that crop or graze animals are usually exempt from this rule).

 

The date you used as an example is the cut off date when you will be fined by the local council  or a contractor will be sent in to do the work at your expense.

 

This has nothing to do with when the slashing can be done. It is left to your discretion to do it in a safe manner, like a cool morning or after a shower of rain if you are responsible.

 

A couple of years ago in one of the local subdivisions, late December,mid 30.c day with strong wind, and late in the afternoon.

 

Old mate decides it would be a good time to get the old push mower out and mow the long dry grass between him and the neighbours block. He starts a fire, the wind whips up the flames through the fence and sets the neighbours shed alight. The heat from the shed fire sets a parked car on fire and it in turn sets the neighbours house on fire.

 

Half a dozen CFA units turn up but it's too late to save any property.

 

Old mate lost 100 square metres of dry grass and a bit of fence.

 

The neighbours lost a shed , a car, their house, all their possessions and most of their fencing.

 

All because one MORON didn't think about what he was doing!    

 

 

[turboplanner]

We'd already covered that Butch.

 

Interesting concept that; making some people cut firebreaks and others not.

 

 

[Butch]

Interesting concept that; making some people cut firebreaks and others not.

 

Turbs, as you know most farmers properties that have stock grazing don't usually become overgrown with rank grass.

 

Firebreaks were introduced in our area when large properties were subdivided into small  5- 10 hectares lots.

 

Many smaller  properties were left without stock grazing and became a major fire hazard. The local councils introduced mandatory  fire breaks around title boundaries (if you weren't full time farming) to break up the area into manageable segments if a fire was to start.  

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, as you know most farmers properties that have stock grazing don't usually become overgrown with rank grass.

 

Firebreaks were introduced in our area when large properties were subdivided into small  5- 10 hectares lots.

 

Many smaller  properties were left without stock grazing and became a major fire hazard. The local councils introduced mandatory  fire breaks around title boundaries (if you weren't full time farming) to break up the area into manageable segments if a fire was to start.  

 

Refer post #593

 

Regarding fires they are required to cut a six metre firebreak inside their boundary fence if they are grazing animals otherwise they have to cut the whole property.

 

It's a Council by Council decision.

 

Ours is better because there's always going to be a clear area where you can drive a truck and see any stumps.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...NPWS have their own paid fire fighters. When it started to get a bit big our Tas Fire volunteers got contacted and they had a couple of dozers making a fire break, when the NPWS people announced that it was getting close to knock off time and they had a big drive home, so ordered our guys off site and locked the gate behind them...

 

As soon as dedicated volunteers get some sort of payment the dynamic starts to shift, eventually corrupting their priorities. Does payment improve their performance? Can this country afford the push by paid firefighter unions to displace volunteers?

 

That's just one of the reason we should have an open inquiry into this fire season.

 

Another reason is to investigate the role played in these fires by roadside grass. I suspect that a large proportion of fires start next to roads; the best firebreaks may be well-grazed roadsides. Finding a way to make it much easier for farmers to "graze the long paddock" might be a very cost-effective fire management strategy.

 

 

[turboplanner]

As soon as dedicated volunteers get some sort of payment the dynamic starts to shift, eventually corrupting their priorities. Does payment improve their performance? Can this country afford the push by paid firefighter unions to displace volunteers?

 

That's just one of the reason we should have an open inquiry into this fire season.

 

Another reason is to investigate the role played in these fires by roadside grass. I suspect that a large proportion of fires start next to roads; the best firebreaks may be well-grazed roadsides. Finding a way to make it much easier for farmers to "graze the long paddock" might be a very cost-effective fire management strategy.

 

The DELWP firefighters in Victoria are also paid, and no one's talking about paid CFA any more except for the few wary managers,. The Parks people have a different structure and spend a lot of time in the forests doing burn offs in the off season.

 

Bev McArthur, the Member for Western Victorian Region has been trying to get the Victorian government to allow stock grazing in areas with long roadside grass, but it's problematic. The long paddocks were three chain roads and there aren't too many of them left, the dought obviously hasn't hit the areas with long grass, so stock would have to be trucked in and a whole generation of new drivers would have to be taught how to negotiate a mob on the road so there are safety issues. The best solutsions I've seen in grass districts is for adjoining owners to bale the hay, and that leans a very neat looking road. Parts of the Western District burn off their roads about now and while it makes an excellent forebreak, it doesn't look too good. On the Kidman Way once around Cunnamulla we drive for about 50 km with the roadsides burnt each side and there's been an Oh Sh!t moment where the fire swung across to the left and ran to the horizon for the next 30 km or so; That would have been a fodder lost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. In much of Australia there's bush and short of cutting all the trees and scrub down, offset by the cost of fitting cable barriers, most Councils decide to leave it there. On a calm day with the wind across the road, either then road can be used as a break, or the wind is too strong and there's a momentary flare up then the fire just continued through the paddocks until it hits a better barrier. It's not so good if it runs along the road, and Jim mentioned losing a house when that happened.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

In our area the roadsides are choked with fallen branches and trees, so slashing or baling isn't possible. Locals kept them clear for free firewood but that became illegal about twenty years ago. They now form habitat for little creatures until a fire burns them out.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In our area the roadsides are choked with fallen branches and trees, so slashing or baling isn't possible. Locals kept them clear for free firewood but that became illegal about twenty years ago. They now form habitat for little creatures until a fire burns them out.

 

A nightmare to fix those.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Given the dire lack of feed and price of hay, it might be cost effective to run an electric tape along many roadsides; apply an 80k limit. Cattle do an excellent job of fuel-reduction.