NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[Aldo]

HI folks!

 

First, my deepest sympathies for all effected by the terrible bushfires in the southern states, and gratitude to those courageous men and women of the emergency services who give their time and energy and risk their lives to protect us all.

 

I have followed this thread for a bit and now wish to contribute since its a topic close to my heart, and a major part of my lived experience..

 

As some may have noticed, I live in the tropical north which has a totally different fire ecology to the south. Fire prevention and management dominates our thinking and activity for about 9 months of the year. The reality is that I live in the heart of the most fire prone region of Australia. My wife and I actively fight fires at least three times a year, every year.  Because of where we live, there is no rural fire service, no SES and  the government does not offer any support to land holders in event of fire, unless lives are directly at risk. I know this because they sent everybody in our district a letter to this effect. 

 

Here is the essence of what we we have learnt:

 

• In the north, fire seasons are getting longer and fires more frequent and intense. As somebody who lives on the land, I have no doubt that weather patterns are changing and fire risks are intensifying on my country,
   
  
• It is extremely hard to  successfully extinguish bushfires (and impossible with the wind behind them).  We put lots of energy into fighting fires, but always even more energy into preventing them through careful pre-fire season preparation.
   
  
• Our bushfires calender is approximately as follows:    four weeks weeds management, six weeks grading and preparing breaks, six weeks fuel reduction and boundary burns,  and then approximately six months of  monitoring and responding to fire threats.
   
  

 

So I don't fully understand fire ecology or administration down south,  but as a general principle I would say that when the fire is coming across the paddock its too late to start worrying about fire response management. Fire strategies need to be carefully thought through and preparations need to start months before the event to prepare the landscape.

 

Now Im guessing that  could mean things like fuel reduction burns through key corridors and establishing natural and artificial fire breaks. Where I live, our neighbours and ourselves have specific response plans for if fire comes at us from any direction.

 

This is all worked out months in advance, and not in the heat of the moment when decision making could be flawed.  And of course we take the pressure off by having our home and assets protected before the fire season (clearing and burning a few acres around the house and other buildings). 

 

Back to the issue of aerial fire fighting:

 

 I know the bloke who hires Air Tractors out as fire bombers during the season to the government. The government spend  can spend 40-50,000 bucks in a single day on air operations around Darwin. That can go on for weeks.  It may not sound like much compared to down south, but consider the size of our population and economy.

 

I used to share an airfield with the Air Tractors. No doubt they're awesome machines, with fast turn-around times and an ability to operate off rough forward strips. In my opinion a handful of Air Tractors would  be much more effective for fire fighting than a large Jet ( like a 737). However, its a sliding scale. I believe the $50000 you spend each day on Air Tractors would be much more efficiently  spent on  pre-season preventative measures on the ground. Air Tractors and maybe even 737s have their place,  but they shouldn't be considered a primary line of defence.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that governments like them because they are highly visible and newsworthy and make the government look like its 'doing something', but also (in our case), enables them to defer any expenditure on fire until the last possible moment... even although the total costs will be massively higher at the end of the fire season. But 'emergency' expenses can always be written off more easily than maintenance or preventative expenses ( especially with the Commonwealth picking up the tab).

 

Just my thoughts... apologies for rambling

 

Alan

 

Alan

 

Very intelligent and logical (careful you could get locked up for thinking like this) I also come from the bush and we plan like this also (although we don't have the fuel loads and eucalypts like they do in NSW and VIC) in fact at the moment you couldn't get a fire to burn, the only other thing you could add is to prevent people from building homes in forests. If you have a look on google earth at where the fires are and the towns that have been devastated you will see that the national parks come right to the edge of a lot of the towns, a full blown fire with a 40 knot wind up its backside is not going to stop at the road. State governments and local councils have a lot to answer for, councils for allowing the town planning and state government for the management of the national parks/forests.

 

My condolences to all affected by these recent fires

 

Allan 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, at this stage she is happy to be unhurt but I suppose she will turn her mibd ti what happens next.

 

Yes, she’ll need some support initially. There’s the loss of mementos, but then the complication of getting a roof over your head and then building a house. The day after Ash Wednesday I took my Motor Home down to some friends on a farm in the Western District. Just driving past the burnt out houses kilometre after kilometre was shattering. When I got there the Motor Home gave them shelter, a stove, a refrigerator, a toilet and a week’s water. They were able to stay on the farm and manage the reconstruction. Their son lived in it for 9 months until a new home was built for them under a Comminwealth/State scheme.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

My son in laws family has lost a lot of history in burnt sheds, though the house survived. There must be a huge amount of historical records and mementos lost in the last weeks.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Hi Turo - I am well aware of how our dysfunctional government is supposed to work. Thanks anyhow for the tutorial.

 

I do not think that a relatively small (population) country like Au, needs or benefit from a three tier government system. The only people who benefit are the public servants & politicians who are employed under this make work system. 

 

Historically there was merit in the creation of the Crown Colonies but this was a response to the "tyranny" of distance & slow communication of the era - all changed with technology. 

 

The existing system is extraordinarily costly, sluggish & inefficient - there is no logical argument to support three levels of Gov.

 

Potentially we, as a country, would be far better off (individually less tax) with a two tier system - expanded local,  subject to & overseen by a national Gov. is a far more streamlined model able to rapidly respond to changing circumstances, without the cumbersome & parochial State system.

 

Out with the States!!!

 

With our current system taking so long to get anything done with too many levels of Government, even when they commission a report on a subject, it can be buried in bureaucracy and sometimes forgotten so nothing happens. A current example of this is  former Australian Federal Police commissioner Mick Keelty was tasked by the federal government to look at water and drought. He put an idea to government as early as September, proposing a national body to deal with disaster response.

 

Keelty wanted it modelled on the New Zealand Earthquake Commission, which joins up all levels of government, defence and private contractors to reduce response times when a crisis hits. Guess what, nothing has happened.

 

 

[turboplanner]

With our current system taking so long to get anything done with too many levels of Government, even when they commission a report on a subject, it can be buried in bureaucracy and sometimes forgotten so nothing happens. A current example of this is  former Australian Federal Police commissioner Mick Keelty was tasked by the federal government to look at water and drought. He put an idea to government as early as September, proposing a national body to deal with disaster response.

 

Keelty wanted it modelled on the New Zealand Earthquake Commission, which joins up all levels of government, defence and private contractors to reduce response times when a crisis hits. Guess what, nothing has happened.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Management_Australia

 

 

[Methusala]

The question that hangs in the air like a limp windsock is,"Where are the emergency assistance measures directed at the thousands of Australians with no homes?" Unlike previous disasters that I recall, there has been a void of silence. Does this government feel that demands need to rise to a shout before reluctantly opening the purse for those suffering extreme loss and anxiety.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The usual procedure is that people get temporary accommodation or are financially covered while their homes/properties are repaired, or where their home is completely destroyed fleets of trucks and excavators are hired by the state and the house blocks cleared and asbestos disposed of etc. usually that phase involves Commonwealth funds. New houses are then built. Not sure what the  Insurance/State/Commonwealth split is, and cash is provided through Centrelink. This doesn’t usually start until the fires stop burning. After Ash Wednesday the farmers whose houses had been totally destroyed were better off than those who didn’t lose their house.

 

 

[Methusala]

Here's something that cheered me up...

 

Bette Midler (@BetteMidler)

Pity the poor #Australians, their country ablaze, and their rotten @ScottMorrisonMP saying, “This is not the time to talk about Climate Change. We have to grow our economy.” What an idiot. What good is an economy in an uninhabitable country? Lead!! (My emphasis)

 

Nice one Bette

 

 

[turboplanner]

Here's something that cheered me up...

 

Bette Midler (@BetteMidler)

Pity the poor #Australians, their country ablaze, and their rotten @ScottMorrisonMP saying, “This is not the time to talk about Climate Change. We have to grow our economy.” What an idiot. What good is an economy in an uninhabitable country? Lead!! (My emphasis)

 

Nice one Bette

 

Well the State-based structure of the fire fighting in Australia has been explained, and our Premiers have led well.

 

so now we're posting about a "rotten" Prime Minister....................................

 

 

[Methusala]

Hint: It's not us who are calling Scotty from marketing "rotten".

 

In the US there's extensive coverage of this disaster.

 

Morrison is facing international humiliation.

 

The outspoken citizens of Cobargo have been seen and heard around the world.

 

That's not something from which Morrison can run,although he will try.He saw the cameras.That's why he claimed to have met international emissions goals

 

 

[onetrack]

I can't remember the last time I took a lot of notice of a vastly overpaid "entertainment figure", sprouting their important world opinion, from the comfort of their mega-million dollar Hollywood mansion. 

 

 

[Methusala]

But she really "nailed it", right?

 

 

[mnewbery]

Still not declared a national disaster? If not, no federal funds for recovery

 

 

[Aldo]

Here's something that cheered me up...

 

Bette Midler (@BetteMidler)

Pity the poor #Australians, their country ablaze, and their rotten @ScottMorrisonMP saying, “This is not the time to talk about Climate Change. We have to grow our economy.” What an idiot. What good is an economy in an uninhabitable country? Lead!! (My emphasis)

 

Nice one Bette

 

Scott Morrison is leading by not following the moronic Green, Left and those unable to think for themselves religion and scaremongering of the man made climate change agenda.

 

Who is Bette Midler anyway an actor/singer (essentially a no-one in the real scheme of things) and obviously another of the left fraternity that live in little bark huts by the sea with no electricity don't own cars and don't take trips in jet aeroplanes so they can all save the world. Please !!!

 

When will people learn if you live in a forest or right beside one and you don't manage it properly you will eventually get burnt, next it will be those who get ruined by floods (which will follow this drought) same thing applies if you live below the high water mark you will eventually get wet

 

Wake up people

 

 

[octave]

Scott Morrison is leading by not following the moronic Green, Left and those unable to think for themselves religion and scaremongering of the man made climate change agenda.

 

Who is Bette Midler anyway an actor/singer (essentially a no-one in the real scheme of things) and obviously another of the left fraternity that live in little bark huts by the sea with no electricity don't own cars and don't take trips in jet aeroplanes so they can all save the world. Please !!!

 

When will people learn if you live in a forest or right beside one and you don't manage it properly you will eventually get burnt, next it will be those who get ruined by floods (which will follow this drought) same thing applies if you live below the high water mark you will eventually get wet

 

Wake up people

 

My sister just lost her house. You know nothing of her land management practices. Your suggestion that only poorly managed propeties burn is not only untrue but lacks empathy and deceny in my opinion.

 

 

[Butch]

Just saw Scott Morrison on A Current Affair

 

Leloir tried to shoot him down!

 

Wake up you guys!

 

This isn't climate change, this isn't bad management , this is NATURE.

 

A few years ago the NSW and QLD were in a flood crisis.

 

Today its FIRE.

 

Tomorrow who knows?

 

Rather than trying to score political points ( like ALBO ) and most of the media..... be realistic.

 

Do you really think that any political party wouldn't try and do the right thing? 

 

When things are at there lowest the brave rise and the scum sink.....as I said take a hard look at yourself!

 

FROM A CFA MEMBER OF 45 YEARS who is sick of you desk bandits! 

 

 

[Aldo]

My sister just lost her house. You know nothing of her land management practices. Your suggestion that only poorly managed propeties burn is not only untrue but lacks empathy and deceny in my opinion.

 

Octave

 

You are right I know nothing of your sister or her land management but it is not the PM's fault, it is not climate change it is Australia as it has always been. Address the problem and address it properly, manage the fuel load and where people build and this will happen less often. You know nothing of my empathy, sympathy or what help I give to people and I actually passed on my condolences on your post yesterday. Sometimes property can't be saved and that is a shame and I'm sorry for your sisters loss, but I would be interested to see what the vegetation around your sisters place was so we can learn from that as well, what is the lat and long so we can see on Google earth.

 

 

[Admin]

Perhaps we close this thread now. I am sure we are all thinking about those that have lost their homes and or loved ones plus the work and effort of our firefighters.