Medicals for Raaus

[Guest babs1aus]

I know this wont be popular and will draw a fair bit of anger from some. I use to think the no medical option was a good idea, however now we are flying faster planes greater duration and pushing for the big weights. Perhaps it is time that the medical is revistited. Especially where the plane being flown has a passenger carrying ability.

 

Ive recently heard of pilots no longer fit for GA moving into our ranks to continue to fly. This is no statement against their skills. Just that there is some people who know when to hang up the headset and others that do not.

 

Ive heard of Pilots with Diabetes, severe weight problems, Pilots being treated for depression with medication others with dangerously high blood pressure. I know that the requirements need not be as high as Ga owing to the fact we dont operate in control zones. however maybe some checkable level of health should be introduced.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi

 

I think you could open a can of worms there, but I'll try and add some sane suggestions.

 

As I recall for RAAus you have to sign a form stating you are medically fit for the operation of a/c i.e. to the standard fit to drive a car.

 

This should exclude people with various problems. But, probably doesn't. But, as for a full blown medical, not really called for,this is recreational flying at it's simplest (VFR) (athough some think they can fly IFR, but that's another story) and I don't think it is really called for. Those with severe problems may need to provide proof they are in fact, fit to hold a drivers licence. There is an existing procedure in Qld transport for that, I think.

 

Maybe production of a drivers licence copy on renewal may help.Also a checklist of ailments on renewal is all that is really called for. Just to keep the cost down.

 

Insulin dependent diabetes need not be a problem, so long as in control. Severely overweight, well, probably already exceeded MTOW, dangerous. Do something about it if you want to fly.Depression, well, up to some 30% of the population suffer it at some time. So long as in control, not such a problem. (except for the use of some narcotics that are sometimes prescribed) Dangerous blood pressure. Do something about it.

 

But more lethal conditions i.e. narcolepsy (microsleep) motor impaired disorders absolutely not. Add in cataracts and other severe vision impairment. and the list goes on.

 

A small administrative change is probably called for and I think that would take care of matters .

 

Also, those quaint blue certificates could possible require a slight upgrade to actually include a photo of the person and other details. Very surprising this has not been done.

 

Just some thoughts, Micgrace:)

 

 

[Guest babs1aus]

Well I thought a photo would be a must in this day and age. However maybe the medical could be carried out by the local Gp and lets say signed off on aRaaus form. Rather than a Dame.

 

Yes I do agree that facets of the medical such as hearing tests the equilibrium and the body mass index could be excluded.

 

However a general health check bi annually and for those letting themselves go so to speak the option to bring theirhealth to a better level.

 

Remeber we are talking about people whom carry passengers operate in and out public airfields.

 

How ever with so many people jumping up and down wanting bigger faster machines and more freedom are they willing to accept that with this freedom comes responsibility.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

It is interesting to read the following for the proposed Recreational Pilots Licience (RPL) as detailed in: NPRM 0309FS Flight Crew Licensing CASR Part-61.405 Flight Without Medical Certificate at http://rrp.casa.gov.au/nprm/nprm0309fsA_DRAFTcasr61_06Aug03.pdf

 

then follow the link to http://www.austroads.com.au with the referenced PDF publication 'Assessing Fitness to Drive - Guidelines and Standards for Health Professionals in Australia'.

 

Cheers

 

Ken.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

A medical for private ops is in many ways pointless.

 

I know of someone who died of a heart-attack only 2 days after his class 1 medical, so that was a complete waste of time.

 

In all honesty, it's a great idea for commercial, in particular the weight limits / BMI, however for private it's questionable. Not having a medical in GA doesn't stop a lot of people anyway. I know someone that's flown GA for the last 15 years without a medical and he's probably a better pilot than 50% of us; he's fit strong and healthy but slightly overweight.(he did eventually get one) He's putting people in no more danger than someone doing a beatup. It's a tough area to delve into and a big can of worms.

 

I hope Roger Serong has not read your comments about diabetes as you're gonna cop one heck of an earful from him! Type 1 and 2 Diabetics are regularly flying in the US on PPL's or equivalent as it's definitely a manageable condition.

 

Put it into perspective... if someone in an RA-Aus aircraft has a heart attack, how much damage will they potentially do to life and property compared to that of a car driver who suffers the same heart attack??? I suspect this is one of the reasons it's not mandatory now.

 

I wouldn't be trying to enforce medicals as in a few years you might not be able to get one for whatever reason and flying might be important to you.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Nosmo

 

I'd actually like to add. It is advisory for your local GP to inform you if you (and DOT) if you have any condition that may prevent you from driving and by inference, RAAus certificate, fly. Few do (GP) or bother anyway. Check out Ken's link.

 

This also applies to pharmacists. Whether it is reported, it's up to them but yet to see it.

 

It is a bit of a loose area and possibly could do with a bit of cleanup, apart from that, the full blown medical, no, not for RAAus certificate.

 

No matter what is done, some fool will always try and get around the restriction (on drivers licence, PPL etc).

 

The solution was very simple a current copy of your drivers licence, plus a simple questionaire on renewal. False filling out of that could result in charges if sod intervenes.

 

As for myself, I will not fly if I have as much as a cold. The risks are just too high.

 

Micgrace micgrace

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Here is a curly one...

 

I've just come back from an overindulgentpub lunch and guess what - Ive got sprung at 0.99 BAC and will definitely loose my licence to drive.

 

Does this then mean that I cannot fly RA-Aus until the judge tells me I'm fit to drive again?

 

(The names have been modified to protect the innocent)

 

Cheers

 

Fred. Ken deVos

 

 

[Guest Prometheus]

Hmmm,

 

No. One doesn't have to have a Drivers Licence to qualify for an RAA Certificate. Just because you've lost your D/L doesn't mean you lose your RAA Cert. You simply have to medically fit to hold a D/L.

 

However IMHO you should wait the mandatory 8 hours bottle to throttle before you attempt wheels-up!

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Hi Dave,

 

On the face of it and with the little detail I supplied, I think you are right. Especially if it was my one-and-only over indulgence. Mind you, at 0.99% BAC I think if not clinically dead, I would be permanently medically blind.

 

However, ahistory of overindulgence (or any other debilitating medical condition) is another matter and at some stage the 'process' should catch up with me.

 

It would appear, from the Austroads publication 'Assessing Fitness to Drive - Guidelines and Standards for Health Professionals in Australia' referenced before, that the medical professionals are supposed to be the police, judge and jury. Perhaps unwillingly at that.

 

Cheers

 

Ken

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Hi

 

I fly and am a 41yr old type 1 diabetic. Every year the state transport department send me off to my local GP to have my ability to continue driving assessed.

 

While its a real pain in the A, I do recognise that its a sensible thing to do. So far every year he assesses me as fit to drive and for that reason I continue to aviate.

 

Under GA rules I simply cannot fly at all. From my perspective its all to do with diabetes control.In my case Im well controlled, which meansmy blood sugar level is kept within the normal tolerances by the regular application of insulin and I get early and very noticable warning when it falls to a low level which can affect a persons ability to make logical decisions.

 

However some diabetics have terrible control and cant keep their sugar levels within the tolerances neededand also dont get any warning when it drops dangerously low. Its these people that shouldnt fly (or potentially drive) Assessing control is difficult and as suchCASA errs on the side of caution. I would hope that approach doesnt apply to RAA people, however when all is said and done its a risk assesment. SO far I dont see anything that has changed which would affect that risk assesment

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Prometheus]

Andy,

 

agreed. I'd personally have no problem with a Medical Certificate signed off by one's G.P. biannually sighting one's fitness to fly/drive a motor vehicle.

 

RAA Pilots would still be avoiding paying CASA and DAME fees, but then has there been sufficient evidence to warrant such a move? Have there been a spate of incidents caused by health issues or pilot fitness? Probably not.

 

We'll see what the powers that be decide.

 

 

[Guest babs1aus]

Have there been a spate of incidents. Who actually knows? There seems to be some sort of incident every week and it seems the majority are never spoken about just whispers and inuendo. Which is a real shame asall would most likely benefit someone elses decision making.

 

Are any of these medical related? again Who knows. I dont think that a medical is about who can and cant fly, It should be viewed more as am I fit to fly or operate a vehicle, Is there a problem Im not aware of, When Im taking my best mate, wife maybe childfor a fly have I done everything I can to ensure the safest possible outcome.

 

If I have a known mangeable condition have I planned for it. As we are all aware like fuel you cant just stop and hitch to a service station. As I said at the begining Its not about just you its about passengers. The proposed RPL has no medical (re fit to hold drivers Licence) for solo.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi all

 

This is just an observation. It would appear that mostcrashes happen due to pilot error/engine failure although in what order, I'm still a bit undecided about.

 

And not aterribly significantamount of crashesseem to happen throughother causes.

 

If anyone has access Iwould be interested to know the actual statistics (if there is such available) or other observations of the breakdown of incident causes (no pun intended) These seem, to be for some reason, withheld.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Ben Longden]

There are may people who have done the right thing at night, only to be breathalysed on their way to work the next day - and still be over the limit.

 

Ben

 

 

[Admin]

Driving back yesterday I stopped for fuel in Albury and to pay I had to go in by the side door as a lady had filled her car up and as she walked into the shop to pay suddenly callapsed in the doorway - apparently she is a diabetic!

 

2 minutes later she would have been back on the road

 

My mother is a diabetic and she pricks her finger a couple of times a day and makes sure she eats at the right times etc. She has never callapsed.

 

I am blind in one eye and therefor have no 3rd dimension and thus can not judge distance, height etc which meant it took me a lot longer to learn to judge the right time to flare but as an instructor said to me, he had never met anyone who could line the runway up as good as me.

 

I have been blind in that eye now for nearly 40 years and I know no different.

 

Just some points of thought without getting into any judgemental statements of right or wrong ;)

 

 

[BlueSideUp]

Three or four years ago when I had my last GA medical I asked the doctor how many serious problems he picked up from aviation medicals.

 

He had been doing medicals for a lot of years and his response was maybe two or three in all that time

 

98% of people would know they have a problem that would make them unsafe

 

 

[Guest garrett81]

hi all, just thought id make a comment on this post. the majority of concern on this topic is based upon pilots flying soloor as pilot in command carrying passengers, family or freinds. which with some people who lie or do not manage thier conditions is a problem.

 

however, just because someone has a condition should not mean they cannot fly at all. as mentioned earlier its the people who blatently lie or have no common sense that ruin it for the rest of us. i myself cannot fly ga aircraft for commercial purposes and if i was to get my ppl then i would need top take a safety pilot with me on all flights.

 

to this end i will never be able to get my endorsement to carry passengers in rpl and nor do i wish to, i will carry a licensed rpl pilot with me on all flights.

 

i do not belive that flying should be taken away from people. the way this is undertakenmodified or asafe solution yes but taken away full stop no.

 

and yes i do hold a full unrestricted motor vehicle driverslicense, iagree that this alone should not be the entire basis for being licensed,in a car you can pull over if something happens, in a plane its a very different situation, you cant just land! however if you haveanother pilot with you that can take over, and you have the sense to do so then i dont see that you should not be able to fly!

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I have been blind in that eye now for nearly 40 years and I know no different.

I do believe that being blind in one eye, you can still even gain a medical for a Private Pilots license.. (Just a point of thought)

 

I do however think that there should be more than a piece of documentation presenting that a RA-Aus pilot is medically fit -(aka drivers license or signature stating medical status )

 

I am thinking maybe a local GP medical instead of a DAME to sign off a medical once every 2-4 yrs.. Lets be honest, all aviators are then at risk if there is one medically un-fit pilot amongst us.

 

I do know many pilots who have been stripped from their wings, but this is for a good reason regardless whether the pilot may have 100 or 30 000 hours. bateo

[Admin]

Hi Sam - even with only one eye (monocular) I can get my Commercial Licence - when I asked CASA about ATPL they just simply said "don't push your luck"

 

Personally I agree with a medical from a GP every year (at standard GP costs) although we have all heard the stories about having a heart attach 1 week after having a medical done but on the positive side there just may well be something that the doc picks up and is treated early therefore allowing you to fly for a lot longer.

 

 

[Yenn]

Even if all the fatal accidents were caused by a medical condition, there would still be very little chance of a doctor catching the symptons. There are very few GA accidents caused by medical conditions even in countries which are not as stringent as Australia.

 

It would be prudent to wait for statistics to show a need for medicals, rather than raise the subject now. Unless of course you are aware of dangerous pilots flying now, and in that case you should be talking to them and if that doesn't work, spreading the word. I have personally talked to pilots about their unsafe practices and it seems to have had a beneficial effect.

 

Don't raise the issue of photographic licences. For starters mostof us have a drivers licence with a photo and many of us have ASIC cards. Carrying a photo will only identify you if someone has a close look and my experience is that as long as you look as if you have a photo ID nobody will look closely enough to see if it is your or your wifes photo.

 

 

[Guest sypkens]

I suppose in general i do not have any issues with medicals. Like most blokes and very well highlighted by the mowember campaign recently i do not visit the doctor often. i suppose this would be one way of ensuring that i do visit because i would be devasted if i could not fly.

 

although i would like to point out i would only do this through my local gp - not a dame.

 

regards,

 

jan

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I would like to see the point of getting a standard medical from your local GP for the standard average cost of around $50 once every 2 years or so.. Not from a DAME which costs you $150 as soon as you walk through the door.. We do want to make the skies safer, but we don't want to scare off potential and hobby pilots either!!!

 

 

[peter]

As a practising GP who travels far and wide across the country, I have done all sorts of medicals for all sorts of occupational reasons as well as commercial vehicle licenses. I am also licensed to do private and commercial diving licenses. It is certainly my experience that they are without doubt a total waste of everybody's time. If someone wants to hide a condition from us it is pretty easy - just borrow a few antihypertensive tablets, dose yourself up with steroids to hide your asthma etc.

 

the simplest solution is an honesty system of tick the box type forms and then screen only those at high risk.

 

I never sign anyone off as "fit to dive", none of us were born with gills. It is just that some of us are less fit than others. I see it as my job to educate people as to the risks they are taking in their particular case and let them decide.

 

I am currently working near cairns and took a reef trip last weekend - it was pretty amazing watching people being screened for their introductory dives -- they were following the manuals but coaching the people to give the right answers!! a rather dangerous practise.

 

the other comment I would make is that most GPs haven't a clue about diving medicals (including a lot who dive) how would they be any different with aviation medicals?

 

with recreational aircraft now regularly flying around 9,000 ft it becomes rather problematic.

 

Their is no easy answer but pushing the respnsibility onto your local GP is not the way to go. We must take responsibility for ourselves, and our friends.

 

If you know of someone whose medical condition is not consistent with safe flight what would you do? Would you report them?

 

Cheers Peter

 

 

[Guest bateo]

Peter, You make a good point...

 

I dont think the friendly community of Ra-Aus pilots would report each other unless it was no doubt a serious danger... My opinion would be that the only thing possible being a fellow friend or pilot is to have a serious talk with them.

 

If they decide to ignore your doubts, then I think it would be time to report them...

 

As you probably know, There are many older GA pilots out there converting to rec because of their health, A Jabiru or Tecnam is the same as a piper cherokee or cessna.. We must take responsibility for our skies, because its not just those with unconsistent medicals under danger.. Its their fellow pilots and pax too.

 

 

[facthunter]

A lot of GP.s would not be happy to sign off on a medical relating to operating an aircraft, even an ultralight. They are frightened of the liability.(I have personal experience of this) Its the same as buying a tin of paint ,or a brake part, or a piece of 4130 tube even, Nobody wants to sell it to you if you tell them it's for an aeroplane. You want to get this into perspective. You don't carry passengers, You carry one passenger at a time. If you carry people they are usually people that you know,your wife or a friend.and you don't do it for profit, unless you are an instructor, where you do a class 2 medical. If you carry people,all passengers should have had it explained that this is not a normal fully certified aircraft, in fact, that you don't have a pilots licence, you have a certificate. Your cockpit is prominently placarded ( legal requirement) A briefing is also required. If you carry people you don't know,( even some that you do) something bad happens, you may easily lose your house. I did a class 1 medical for 30 years, and nobody that I know believed that it was a guarantee for anything much. Statistically, food poisoning rates as a significant risk, should be considered also, when you are 'on the road'. Nev...