Aviation Accidents Poll

[Admin]

On the site we have database sections for Articles, Aircraft, Tutorials etc. The Articles section entries are at the moment coming from the Aviation News forum, I go through each entry in there and convert anything that is interesting into an Article for the Article section and then delete the rest as these are no longer needed.

 

One such type of News Article is every aviation accident that has happened over the last few years so I was wondering, strictly from an educational point of view, whether to create a new section on Aviation Accident Articles. This new section would contain the news items on all the accidents that have happened over the last few years and as each one happens in the future. It would be contained in the main Media section of the site.

 

We need to give thought to the loved ones but also I believe it would be very helpful to discuss, in a mature and thoughtful way, the accident media report and meets the site objectives of:

 

Through interactive discussion...

 

1. Pilot Skills are increased

 

2. Aircraft are better maintained

 

3. Pilots safety is improved

 

So what say you...vote if this initiative should go ahead...thanks

 

 

[SSCBD]

Yes - But should be open only to members on this site not to general public.

 

 

[Admin]

Yes - But should be open only to members on this site not to general public.

 

Yes, a Guest will only be able to see the entry title but will need to register to see the content...just like the Articles, Tutorials and Aircraft sections...on the Home page they can see the article name and that it exists but when they click on it a message says that it is only viewable to registered users.

 

Also, forgot to mention that the entries will be world wide, not accidents in only one specific country and both small light aircraft up to airliner as I think we could even learn something from an airliner accident

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, not overseas and jouranlist driven reports.

 

Overseas aircraft will not always be the same specification as ours or built to the same standard as ours, the rules are different and a crash by a pilot carrying out a legal activity overseas may not be applicable here because we are prohibited from carrying out that activity here (eg aerobatics/turns over 60 deg.

 

Overseas aircraft may be operating in more cluttered airspace, and so be more prone to collisions etc.

 

And the jurisdictions are different, so the policies of governing bodies are different.

 

We've done very well over the years on this site in analysing, what might have happened in an Australian crash, and not only are we right most of the time, and so able to produce a learning experience from Australian pilota under Australian conditions, but we usually ring a few bells with the speculation too.

 

In the end what will count for us, in terms of getting more freedoms or losing freedoms is our own performance here in Australia.

 

Given the almost universal condemnation of journalists I'm a little surprised that this has come up. Anyone interested to an international extent could just tap into the reports direct, and I've done that, but what I found was the conditions were so different that the lessons really only applied to the home countries.

 

 

[Admin]

BUT this site is NOT Australian only...it is for ALL recreational aviators

 

 

[turboplanner]

That might be so, but to avoid it becoming a bowl of mud, you would have to separate the crashes by country so they made sense to the person visiting the site, and also to Australians.    We've had a few confusing ones from England and South Aftrica where the terms had different connotations and they go bogged down by people confusing each other.

 

 

[NT5224]

I think its a good idea but...

 

Why not focus on aviation incident reports rather than media reports?  We all know general (non-aviation) media  reports can be very wide of the mark, speculative and even misleading.

 

Not saying don't do it, just putting the question out there for more experienced minds than mine.   

 

 Cheers

 

Alan

 

 

[Admin]

Good idea however getting incident reports is extremely hard, just look at trying to find an incident report for an RAAus accident.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Good idea however getting incident reports is extremely hard, just look at trying to find an incident report for an RAAus accident.

 

They are visable to RAA members however the recent "Jabiru rescues Rotax plane" did not happen.? It maybe VH reg

 

 

[Blue Drifter]

The ATSB publish all reports. It would nice to know the causes of accidents so we can prevent it from happening again. If there was a fault with Drifters causing accidents I would certainly want to know.

 

But for some reason the RAA decide not to publish this information. Why?

 

 

[turboplanner]

The ATSB publish all reports. It would nice to know the causes of accidents so we can prevent it from happening again. If there was a fault with Drifters causing accidents I would certainly want to know.

 

But for some reason the RAA decide not to publish this information. Why?

 

With very few exceptions the ATSB don’t get involved in RA crashes, the State Police do that, and call in RAA for assistance when they need it.

 

 

[Downunder]

The ATSB is politically funded, driven and controlled. The last few years have seen more focus on "international" investigations to the detriment of injured and killed Australian citizens. Politicians seeking glory and foreign government adulation could not care less about dying Australian tax payers. A death in a RAA aircraft and a death in a GA aircraft... is still a death. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

The ATSB is politically funded, driven and controlled. The last few years have seen more focus on "international" investigations to the detriment of injured and killed Australian citizens. Politicians seeking glory and foreign government adulation could not care less about dying Australian tax payers. A death in a RAA aircraft and a death in a GA aircraft... is still a death. 

 

Well you're certainly not talking about our ATSB. It certainly has a cap to its budget, and remember it has to investigate land and sea accidents as well as air, but its false to say it is politically driven or controlled.  It's not legally possible these days for any organisation to say what used to be said up until the end of the 1970s, and people are critical of them for that, and I certainly miss the Macarthur Job reports, where they were able to get to the guts of a fataility and report that, for example the pilot frequented the club lounge, and was known for boasting that he could fly in cloud, had done it on several occasions, this one, with the rock filled cloud being his last. It gave you the real reason, and the specific thing to avoid. Having been called in to one investigation (which they picked up from my comment on social media)  and asked to give evidence, I can attest to their clinical, compartmental, and very thorough process.

 

 

[spacesailor]

And the pilots "safe" or injured state !.

 

would be nice to know they survived the crash.

 

I made the inquiry about the HummleBird prang, but no answer was forthcoming.

 

I d o still hope he lives to fly again.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Admin]

I am starting to wonder if the site is really worth having any more given that of the hundreds that visit the site only 9 people have bothered to vote...has the site now run its course?

 

 

[Downunder]

Well you're certainly not talking about our ATSB. It certainly has a cap to its budget, and remember it has to investigate land and sea accidents as well as air, but its false to say it is politically driven or controlled.  It's not legally possible these days for any organisation to say what used to be said up until the end of the 1970s, and people are critical of them for that, and I certainly miss the Macarthur Job reports, where they were able to get to the guts of a fataility and report that, for example the pilot frequented the club lounge, and was known for boasting that he could fly in cloud, had done it on several occasions, this one, with the rock filled cloud being his last. It gave you the real reason, and the specific thing to avoid. Having been called in to one investigation (which they picked up from my comment on social media)  and asked to give evidence, I can attest to their clinical, compartmental, and very thorough process.

 

Abbot used the ATSB for political glory seeking trying to find mh 370. 

 

$100 odd million later (and the budget blown)  Abbot and mh370 are nowhere to be found.

 

There was also a massive investigation into an illegal immigrant boat hitting rocks and people drowning. This was also politically motivated.

 

My point is that tax paying Australian citizens dying in tragic accidents are not being investigated. 

 

RAA accidents are a clear example of this. 

 

I am not questioning their ability, but it IS a government department and obviously they have political masters and as such politically motivated investigations. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

I am starting to wonder if the site is really worth having any more given that of the hundreds that visit the site only 9 people have bothered to vote...has the site now run its course?

 

No it hasn't, not by any means; it is picking up new active participants.

 

However, you'll notice that the Americans come for a while and they go; not because they don't like the content but because it just doesn't relate to them or their industry.

 

Given the award winning apathy of the claimed 13,000 RAA members, you'd have to expect anything that might detract lying on the couch scratching their balls would be an interruption to their day.

 

Also, bear in mind that a successful business promotion gets around 3% response.

 

However, in recent weeks there have been some good knowledgable contributors to the forums and some good discussions.

 

The advertising insertions seem to be accepted very well, and that's good for long term income.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Abbot used the ATSB for political glory seeking trying to find mh 370. 

 

$100 odd million later (and the budget blown)  Abbot and mh370 are nowhere to be found.

 

There was also a massive investigation into an illegal immigrant boat hitting rocks and people drowning. This was also politically motivated.

 

My point is that tax paying Australian citizens dying in tragic accidents are not being investigated. 

 

RAA accidents are a clear example of this. 

 

I am not questioning their ability, but it IS a government department and obviously they have political masters and as such politically motivated investigations. 

 

You must have missed the news that MH370 was believed to have gone down in Australian waters and that automatically triggered the Australian response. If a boat hit rocks and people drowned then guess who has to investigate? ATSB.

 

So no political motivation.

 

No Australian death in an accident is not investigated; there are protocols in place to see that Coroners do this

 

RAA accidents ARE investigated, and I gave you the information on who investigates - State Police. They in turn provide evidence to the Coroner.

 

ATSB is NOT a government department, and if you check you will find there are safeguards against politically motivated investigations.

 

 

[johnm]

This site has a long road to run Ian - thanks to your enthusiasm . servitude, perseverance  ......................... I doubt there will ever be an end if you allow to keep it all going

 

I'd say a fair few of us read intently all that is posted - with limited knowledge on most of the subjects, for me, its just as best to let the informed decide and go with the majority vote

 

 

[spacesailor]

I didn,t vote as I don,t know the answer,

 

But it would be nice to know the pilot  will fly again, especially if they are an acquaintance.

 

And I,ll second JOHNM content as it says what I feel. 

 

Many thanks, your apreciateded more  then we tell.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[kaz3g]

Well you're certainly not talking about our ATSB. It certainly has a cap to its budget, and remember it has to investigate land and sea accidents as well as air, but its false to say it is politically driven or controlled.  It's not legally possible these days for any organisation to say what used to be said up until the end of the 1970s, and people are critical of them for that, and I certainly miss the Macarthur Job reports, where they were able to get to the guts of a fataility and report that, for example the pilot frequented the club lounge, and was known for boasting that he could fly in cloud, had done it on several occasions, this one, with the rock filled cloud being his last. It gave you the real reason, and the specific thing to avoid. Having been called in to one investigation (which they picked up from my comment on social media)  and asked to give evidence, I can attest to their clinical, compartmental, and very thorough process.

 

I think I mentioned previously that I took Mac for his last flight. Did this at a Coldstream Memorial Day for the original aerodromes owner, Jimmy Doake.

 

Mac climbed into the Auster, despite hips and knees, and accepted the chance to take the controls once airborne. He flew so perfectly I felt very aware of my less capable demonstration of skills. He was a lovely guy and it was djp who brought him out for the day.

 

Vale Mac Job.

 

 

[Admin]

Ok, I have created a new section called "Aviation Accidents" and it is contained in the "Media" section of the main menu. I will start populating it with accidents over say the last 3 years from the entries in the Aviation News forum to build up the list of entries for discussion so the entries will get older and older as I go but I will also add any new ones that come in as well. There are several categories:

 

Recreational

 

General Aviation

 

Commercial

 

Military

 

Rotary

 

Other

 

Each entry will also contain the tags of the Date of the accident and also the Country of where the accident occurred. These should help in steering any discussion.

 

I also would like to add the strict site rules when discussing accidents:

 

• Accidents and Incidents posts are to be made with consideration to them being a learning tool for the betterment of all site members
   
  
• No conclusions shall be made on the cause of any accident.
   
  
• No allocation of personal blame shall be made directly or indirectly at any person.
   
  
• Possible causes, or contributory factors, of an accident may be explored and opinion given based on the poster’s demonstrated reasons for giving such opinion.
   
  
• All posts shall be sensible of the feelings of family and friends and expressed accordingly.
   
  

 

[Hargraves]

G,day Ian, just a couple of points sir, the fact the you and many other pilots are thinking this is a valuable idea worth doing is indicitive of its self that their is a real absense and requirement for it, in my opinion. As well to even suggest that the forum has(run its course) is a nonsense also in my opinion, additionally I to, am one of the very many regular pilot participants that observe and NB without feeling the need to  post for various reasons including that the particular subject has already been covered nicely.    Please keep up your good work sir and thank you for the new Section

 

 

[Admin]

I am not completely happy with the new Accidents Media section and not sure if there is a better way to have accidents listed that will help to educate and invoke discussion. Do I just move the media reports as threads to the Accidents and Incidents forum or keep going as I am...or what else could I do to make it a better solution...your thoughts?