Piper vs Cessna

[adrian1970]

Hi Head Honcho, yes i have considered an RA plane, how would that work with my CASA PPL and then flying to RA planes, i think someone mentioned this earlier somewhere but im assuming there is another course or something i would have to do in order to be licensed for the RA machines?

 

Also, at this stage i do have 2 little 3 year old kidlets who will eagerly fill the rear seats but also they wont be small for long, particularly at the rate my boys are growing.

 

 

[facthunter]

Every qualification you have on any  VH operation will transfer to the Certificate. You have to do a few hours to cover low inertia if you need it . It used to be a bit of a deal, but now many planes fly more efficiently than some GA types and you may never fly a low inertia plane. There's pax carrying after solo of min one hour. Check schools for details. Get used to the idea of practicing engine failures, and landing off field issues like SWER power lines.. Jabirus are good enough to get a good flying grounding in, but some may suit you better than others from the cockpit ergonomic point of view. Nev

 

 

[adrian1970]

Every qualification you have on any  VH operation will transfer to the Certificate. You have to do a few hours to cover low inertia if you need it . It used to be a bit of a deal, but now many planes fly more efficiently than some GA types and you may never fly a low inertia plane. There's pax carrying after solo of min one hour. Check schools for details. Get used to the idea of practicing engine failures, and landing off field issues like SWER power lines.. Nev

 

Thanks nev for all your help you seem a wealth of info cheers!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

As  PPL now also an  RAA Cert,  I can tell you that the difference in handling is significant. Don't know about the big Jab's, I did my conversion on little ones and now fly a long wing Czech beauty and I found it quite challenging to adapt to much lower inertia and way lighter more responsive handling - I hope it makes for a better pilot ( probably a bit like having a glider endorsement).  As for the rest of it you will still be making the same radio calls, flight planning and applying the same training/theory.

 

 

[adrian1970]

As  PPL now also an  RAA Cert,  I can tell you that the difference in handling is significant. Don't know about the big Jab's, I did my conversion on little ones and now fly a long wing Czech beauty and I found it quite challenging to adapt to much lower inertia and way lighter more responsive handling - I hope it makes for a better pilot ( probably a bit like having a glider endorsement).  As for the rest of it you will still be making the same radio calls, flight planning and applying the same training/theory.

 

Thanks skippy

 

 

[djpacro]

Hi Head Honcho, yes i have considered an RA plane, how would that work with my CASA PPL and then flying to RA planes ...

 

RAA is an optional registration. Types you are discussing can have VH registrations and its just normal life with your RPL.

 

 

[adrian1970]

Thanks Djp, so to clarify it is an option to register a RAA ultra light to VH rego? & if so what are the pros & cons?

 

Cheers

 

Adrian.

 

 

[facthunter]

In the case of most of them it's not very practical or possible. Unless it's VH experimenta, the manufacturer is very involved with it  and no changes can be done easily  (as with any VH registered Plane). by you. Nev

 

 

[jetboy]

Its good to evaluate buying vs renting right at the start. True that nobody really knows what type you are going to prefer to own but that can be changed later anyway, every $300 you spend building hours in a hire is $300 less available to buy one (less the fuel / mtce costs of course) but it adds up quickly consider on average you need 70hrs training to go to PPL. 

 

I did all my training at an aero club and like any organisation the rates are stacked up to suit their operation, we were to fly at reduced rpm so they could pay less for fuel while charging out more hours flight time and overhauling the engines less often (tacho time is less). I know that effectively got us a PPL at lower cost along with bumping our bookings whenever a tourist wanted the plane for scenic - depends what price you put on your time and if those logged hours are effective value for the money.

 

The other factor is you dont get to take a rental anywhere or anytime you like, it has to be booked and if you get stranded with weather etc. you might be paying twice for someone else to get it back. To go on holiday the economics of hiring self fly dont stack up but if you already own it then the actual cost of making that trip is only the cost of fuel and oil  and landing / ATC charges all the other costs are going to happen whether you fly that trip or not.

 

 I chose an older Cessna after doing due diligence on the type, visiting more than 2 mtce shops for advice on the pros and cons, Lycoming issues vs. Continental. Avoided a syndicate because I wanted full control over useage and no arguments over mtce standards. I was able to save a lot of costs by doing simple items like corrosion control under advice / supervision, often they would let me use their workshop facilities while I was there for the annual no self respecting LAME would rather do this work if you will its like the garage sign that reads "repairs $100 / hr while you watch $120 / hr while you help $140 / hr"

 

They had told me an annual on a Cessna would take about 9 hrs vs. 11 or 12 for Cherokee as the removal for inspection work is more. It cost less if I opened up all the inspection panels for them also it doesnt cost any more to maintain 4 seater vs. 2 the inspection items are equally tedious.

 

   Best of luck choosing, either way I dont regret getting into flying. Its an observation that pilots often prefer the type of plane they trained most in, I started with C172 and preferred high wing ever since. Mate was a Piper man, so much hassle getting in & out but it got us there regardless.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Having two doors is important and the Cessna has far more effective flaps. They are both pretty easy to fly and both can have serious corrosion issues. Have a very thorough inspection done prior to committing to a purchase, It may well  be the best money you spend and all the paperwork MUST be there and AD's done. Not all schools will use your plane so check that out before you do your sums. Don't fall for a "pretty" new paint job. It may hide a lot of faults and a poor New paint job may have to be redone anyhow. It's also possible to nicely "touch up" earlier paint finishes that use non 2 pack paints Ie  acrylic lacquer or acrylic enamel. (Older softer paints than can be blended in ) .. You don't want a thick coat of paint especially on a fabric plane where it will add weight and cause the fabric to crack.  Nev

 

 

[kgwilson]

The only disadvantage of a Cherokee is the single door & having to stand on the seat getting in. Not good if the ground outside is wet or muddy. Otherwise comfort is way better than a 172 with a more laid back seating position rather than the kitchen chair upright seat of the 172 & the high panel to try & look over. The Cherokee also has a much quieter cabin as well. The only other thing is you have to remember to change fuel tanks in the Cherokee & you don't in the 172 if you choose to select both.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I have never stood on the seat or had a passenger do it. Slide the passenger seat back!

 

 

[facthunter]

Reminds me. check the seat runners for condition on the Cessna.  2 door is good in case you can't get out one side. Nev

 

 

[adrian1970]

Its good to evaluate buying vs renting right at the start. True that nobody really knows what type you are going to prefer to own but that can be changed later anyway, every $300 you spend building hours in a hire is $300 less available to buy one (less the fuel / mtce costs of course) but it adds up quickly consider on average you need 70hrs training to go to PPL. 

 

I did all my training at an aero club and like any organisation the rates are stacked up to suit their operation, we were to fly at reduced rpm so they could pay less for fuel while charging out more hours flight time and overhauling the engines less often (tacho time is less). I know that effectively got us a PPL at lower cost along with bumping our bookings whenever a tourist wanted the plane for scenic - depends what price you put on your time and if those logged hours are effective value for the money.

 

The other factor is you dont get to take a rental anywhere or anytime you like, it has to be booked and if you get stranded with weather etc. you might be paying twice for someone else to get it back. To go on holiday the economics of hiring self fly dont stack up but if you already own it then the actual cost of making that trip is only the cost of fuel and oil  and landing / ATC charges all the other costs are going to happen whether you fly that trip or not.

 

 I chose an older Cessna after doing due diligence on the type, visiting more than 2 mtce shops for advice on the pros and cons, Lycoming issues vs. Continental. Avoided a syndicate because I wanted full control over useage and no arguments over mtce standards. I was able to save a lot of costs by doing simple items like corrosion control under advice / supervision, often they would let me use their workshop facilities while I was there for the annual no self respecting LAME would rather do this work if you will its like the garage sign that reads "repairs $100 / hr while you watch $120 / hr while you help $140 / hr"

 

They had told me an annual on a Cessna would take about 9 hrs vs. 11 or 12 for Cherokee as the removal for inspection work is more. It cost less if I opened up all the inspection panels for them also it doesnt cost any more to maintain 4 seater vs. 2 the inspection items are equally tedious.

 

   Best of luck choosing, either way I dont regret getting into flying. Its an observation that pilots often prefer the type of plane they trained most in, I started with C172 and preferred high wing ever since. Mate was a Piper man, so much hassle getting in & out but it got us there regardless.

 

 

 

[adrian1970]

Hi Jetboy, thanks foe the insight. that all makes sense to me. cheers.

 

I will add to that case study, I have and still train in C172 high wings and i think that is my preferred machine.

 

 

[facthunter]

 It's probably not hard enough to fly to be a good trainer.  At some stage get into something different and consolidate on it. I'm not sure that what I learned on means much ( Chipmunk) but I can only speak for myself. Some planes I originally flew because they were cheaper to hire and not in great shape and weren't used much

 

. .Similarly I did X countries in Austers and Tiger moths as they were cheaper by a significant margin. The more different planes you fly the more adaptable you will be. You can get into a comfortable rut with just the one.. Same with where you fly. Go to different aerodromes and put in the preparation required to do it well.. Nev

 

 

[kgwilson]

Reminds me. check the seat runners for condition on the Cessna.  2 door is good in case you can't get out one side. Nev

 

Brings back a memory I wish I didn't have. A bloke I knew went to the States & bought a C172, 180 hp from the DEA. It'd been sitting in the Desert for 5 or 6 years after being confiscated as a drug runner aircraft. Got it for $5K US. Shipped it back to NZ & offered it for hire (cheap) before restoration. It was pretty rough. Interior, windows, stuffed upholstery showed that time outside in super hot dry conditions, peeling paint etc had taken its toll. He said to me "Goes like the clappers, coarse prop heaps of grunt 1 up, 60 bucks an hour.

 

He was right. I thought I did it all right. All the checks OK. Adjusted the seat. Wiggled & rocked back & forth to make sure it was locked & took off. Wow did this thing climb, 1000 fpm, then bang the seat runners let go. I flew backwards along with the yoke. How I did it I don't know but I managed to grab the top of the  panel with my right hand which a millisecond before had the throttle at full power. The whole panel top & the plastic cover over the instruments came adrift & ended up on my chest. Somehow I managed to get the yoke forward to avoid death, got back in control & returned for an uneventful landing & lots of abuse served on the owner. Needless to say I did not pay for the hire.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Reminds me. check the seat runners for condition on the Cessna.  2 door is good in case you can't get out one side. Nev

 

Cessna now have to be fitted with the secondary seat stop on the pilots side. A seat belt type retractable reel that when adjusted correctly won't allow the seat to slide back until the release handle is full up.

 

 

[adrian1970]

 It's probably not hard enough to fly to be a good trainer.  At some stage get into something different and consolidate on it. I'm not sure that what I learned on means much ( Chipmunk) but I can only speak for myself. Some planes I originally flew because they were cheaper to hire and not in great shape and weren't used much

 

. .Similarly I did X countries in Austers and Tiger moths as they were cheaper by a significant margin. The more different planes you fly the more adaptable you will be. You can get into a comfortable rut with just the one.. Same with where you fly. Go to different aerodromes and put in the preparation required to do it well.. Nev

 

Thanks nev, I have booked a Piper low wing for next month, also i am in the process of organising some Dual flights in a sling. should be fun. cheers. Adrian.

 

 

[adrian1970]

 It's probably not hard enough to fly to be a good trainer.  At some stage get into something different and consolidate on it. I'm not sure that what I learned on means much ( Chipmunk) but I can only speak for myself. Some planes I originally flew because they were cheaper to hire and not in great shape and weren't used much

 

. .Similarly I did X countries in Austers and Tiger moths as they were cheaper by a significant margin. The more different planes you fly the more adaptable you will be. You can get into a comfortable rut with just the one.. Same with where you fly. Go to different aerodromes and put in the preparation required to do it well.. Nev

 

Hi Nev, what you think is one of the more challenging small GA planes to fly?

 

 

[facthunter]

It was easier in the early days to get a lot more choice. and it depends on whether you hire or buy. Being practical, and not emphasising the word Challenge too much I would do some time in  Jab 230 a few hours or whatever it takes to get fully comfortable, then probably a Decathlon to do a T/W endorsement and unusual attitude recovery (and perhaps a bit of basic aeros IF you wish to. NOT compulsory ). If you can muck around in a Cub (You might have to buy that one) for about 50 hours that won't hurt either  Keep it as a pet as well.  There's a lot more choice in U/L planes but none are certified for more than S&L( sort of.)..  Anytime I do/did aeros I did it i pretty strong aircraft. Not into doing it in "marginal " structurally utility types. Nev

 

 

[planedriver]

Hi Adrian, there's an old saying that says "profit is made from the very regular use of something, not necessarily the ownership of it.

 

I too went through the stage of wanting ownership, but that never eventuated. In hindsight that turned out the best for me.

 

I also once owned a very nice cabin-cruiser which was not used as often as originally anticipated. I would have saved many thousand by simply hiring when I needed too.

 

Food for thought!

 

 

[Hunsta]

[ATTACH]42126[/ATTACH]

 

Adrian is suffering from that well-known disorder, Newbie Lust. Typically, this lust is displayed by the novice at the beginning of their aviation life. They see their future through rose-coloured glasses, flying off hither, thither and yon at a whim, with no concept of the harsh financial realities of aircraft ownership. Newbie Lust is comparable to Puppy Love. At the start, it's all exciting and wonderful. Then the excitement and wonder start to fade as reality sets in, until the Newbie is like the eunuch at the urinal - just looking down on the unemployed. Just have a look at the number of big boats sitting idle on trailers in peoples' front yards and you'll see another example of Newbie Lust.

 

There should be a big warning notice posted at all flying schools saying "If you can't afford to pay for your training up front, you can't afford your own plane either."

 

Sure, if you have used part of your Powerball winnings to clear all your domestic debts, and don't have to work again, then buy yourself a plane, a boat and a mobile home and live worry-free. But if you are, or have been, a wage slave then hook up with an aero club, or a good flight school and use their aircraft as the urge takes you.

 

Never have I had such an "OMG this is me right now" awakening moment in all my life. As I have now after reading that. 

 

But to my credit, it was kinda my plan to do it that way.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

[ATTACH]42126[/ATTACH]

 

Adrian is suffering from that well-known disorder, Newbie Lust. Typically, this lust is displayed by the novice at the beginning of their aviation life. They see their future through rose-coloured glasses, flying off hither, thither and yon at a whim, with no concept of the harsh financial realities of aircraft ownership. Newbie Lust is comparable to Puppy Love. At the start, it's all exciting and wonderful. Then the excitement and wonder start to fade as reality sets in, until the Newbie is like the eunuch at the urinal - just looking down on the unemployed. Just have a look at the number of big boats sitting idle on trailers in peoples' front yards and you'll see another example of Newbie Lust.

 

There should be a big warning notice posted at all flying schools saying "If you can't afford to pay for your training up front, you can't afford your own plane either."

 

Sure, if you have used part of your Powerball winnings to clear all your domestic debts, and don't have to work again, then buy yourself a plane, a boat and a mobile home and live worry-free. But if you are, or have been, a wage slave then hook up with an aero club, or a good flight school and use their aircraft as the urge takes you.

 

This little epistle to the the Newbie/Puppy should be quoted verbatim in all flying/boat schools and may even have a place in main stream sex education - all the bases covered and so so true !!

 

 

[Hunsta]

 may even have a place in main stream sex education - all the bases covered and so so true !!

 

Yep I guess most planes do have wheels...........

 

Now what was that old saying???????

 

???