privacy complaint approved by OAIC

[circuitsun]

following the rejection of my original privacy complaint against RAA by the OAIC,  with help from members of this forum, my appeal has been successful, & my complaint recognized.

 

It will now go the the final resolution [in approx 7 - 9 months]  Meanwhile RAA has been requested to negotiate with me for a settlement.

 

This is where I'd appreciate some feed back from all members affected by this.

 

I would like:  a/  an apology from the RAA board, esp Mr Monk, with some assurance that future policy decisions by the board be more transparent, with input from the members.

 

                    b/ the privacy breach be closed immediately & not re-opened without members consent.

 

[ yes maybe I am in dreamland but one can only work toward a positive result. 

 

However this does leave an important issue,  due to, RAA's abysmal results of negotiations with AAA,  -  that of landing fees.

 

If a landing fee is clearly charged, & you land at that field, you are obliged to pay it,  I don't think there is any argument there.

 

Whilst there is  valid controversy, on councils charging for use of public  airfields, and the insidious use of Avdata, a third party cashing in on those fee's.  this is a secondary argument,  lets not muddy the waters with that just yet.

 

I really need some input & constructive ideas, for an alternate solution, to this issue.

 

One member has suggested, to have RAA pass on the invoices, as in past years,  it became to cumbersome and expensive then,  but with the digital age &  RAA having upgraded it's systems somewhat,  this may now be feasible.

 

While constructive suggestions are welcome from anybody,  this thread is primarily for affected RAA members. So  please don't clog this forum with old rehashed arguments about RAA flyers paying landing fees,   CONSTRUCTIVE  is the primary goal here.  This issue has to be solved.

 

I think another thread perhaps, or latter in this one we could concentrate on passive ways of rewarding councils without charges,  followed by councils with reasonable charges, & penalizing councils with high charges,  or avdata.  we spend a substantial amount of money in towns, when touring,  directing where it goes could be a worthwhile start.   But that is for  later,  lets concentrate on the urgent issue at hand.

 

Thanks you,  Circuitsun.

 

 

[facthunter]

Is anyone in competition with Avdata? (We should not have monopolies) Publicise all aerodrome charges and collection costs.  RAAus get in touch with owners of aerodromes we use and point out advantages of encouraging more use by lower prices particularly when other services on the aerodrome are used. Perhaps RAAus could do the job avdata does more cheaply and pass the discount on to US? Big discount for cash or immediate direct payment (bypass avdata). That should be an alternative option.  Boycott the more exorbitant places. That's how a market works. Nev

 

 

[circuitsun]

Yes, Facthunter,  my thoughts also,  & great idea about RAA being the "avdata"   the problem [not insurmountable]  is, avdata was set up by connections with AAA  and there are some "close ties" there,  Also unfortunately, RAA  has been to busy to bother with this issue,  &  too arrogant to consult with members,  so this this sore has festered too long,  & generated much angst with AAA.

 

 

[KRviator]

My complaint to the OIAC was also upheld, and will be passed on to an investigator for them to look into, when they can spare the time - sounds like they are well and truly swamped with complaints at present. I won't go into the details too much as I don't want to give RAAus any ammunition with which to mount a defence, but it could be an interesting fight nonetheless.

 

 

[circuitsun]

Yes !!   all a little step the right direction.   wonder how many other complaints against RAA

 

 

[facthunter]

 They should be accountable as anyone else is. The are big enough and ugly enough as is commonly stated. We have grown out of the "Our Gang Tree House" mentality, I would think/hope. IF you aren't happy and think wrong procedures are happening by all means  go for it. Good luck and if people don't get off their bums they won't end up with much. That's a certainty. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

Pardon my ignornance, but could circuitsun and KRviator post a precis  of their complaints to bring us all to the same page?

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

In my opinion, I think that under the Part 149 arrangements CASA will require that the register becomes a public document. End of story.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

By the way, congrats on following this issue through and getting a result that shows that RAA must recognise all of the laws of the land in its deliberations and should not accept the assertions of those who have something to gain at face value, CASA included.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

I think that under the Part 149 arrangements CASA will require that the register becomes a public document. End of story.

 

According to Draft AC149-01the register is to be published. The Draft, which was never put out to public consultation (even though it is being used by ASAO's as the template for their Part 149 exposition) despite saying"

 

"This Advisory Circular (AC) will be of interest to:

• Sport and recreational aviation organisations that currently perform self-administration functions under arrangements with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and intend to apply for an ASAO certificate under Part 149 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1988 (CASR).

• Other groups and organisations that may, in the future, want to undertake self-administration functions for activities in which they and their members and affiliates are involved.

• Members and affiliates of these organisations and other persons engaged in those activities. "

 

The Draft AC says on page 14:

 

"An ASAO with the aviation administration function of registering aircraft must include in the exposition a description of its procedures for the registration of aircraft and the publication of the register. An ASAO's aircraft register must contain sufficient information to enable the ASAO or CASA to identify any aircraft on the register, as well as the aircraft’s owner and operator."

 

 

[KRviator]

Pardon my ignornance, but could circuitsun and KRviator post a precis  of their complaints to bring us all to the same page?

 

The synopsis of my complaint was that they collected my details years ago under "Privacy Policy 2.1", to manage my aircraft registration and RPC, however, then entered into a commercial arrangement with a third party (the AAA) and changed their privacy policy to include a term I did not accept when I signed up, thereby allowing any number of fourth-parties (the airport operators) access to my private details. There's several other pertinent points that the OAIC was most interested in, but that's the basics for me...

 

The Draft AC says on page 14:

 

"An ASAO with the aviation administration function of registering aircraft must include in the exposition a description of its procedures for the registration of aircraft and the publication of the register. An ASAO's aircraft register must contain sufficient information to enable the ASAO or CASA to identify any aircraft on the register, as well as the aircraft’s owner and operator."

 

Notice it doesn't say The General Public.... CAsA, yes. The ASAO, yes. Joe Q Busybody? Get stuffed.

 

 

[old man emu]

They collected my details years ago under "Privacy Policy 2.1", to manage my aircraft registration and RPC, however, then entered into a commercial arrangement with a third party (the AAA

 

Oh! I see. A bit like selling its member's details to a retailer of aviation orientated products, who then bombard you with unsolicited phone calls. 

 

Glad you had a win.

 

 

[Downunder]

A bit like selling its member's details to a retailer of aviation orientated products,

 

That could well be, now the precedent has been set.....

 

 

[kaz3g]

following the rejection of my original privacy complaint against RAA by the OAIC,  with help from members of this forum, my appeal has been successful, & my complaint recognized.

 

It will now go the the final resolution [in approx 7 - 9 months]  Meanwhile RAA has been requested to negotiate with me for a settlement.

 

This is where I'd appreciate some feed back from all members affected by this.

 

I would like:  a/  an apology from the RAA board, esp Mr Monk, with some assurance that future policy decisions by the board be more transparent, with input from the members.

 

                    b/ the privacy breach be closed immediately & not re-opened without members consent.

 

[ yes maybe I am in dreamland but one can only work toward a positive result. 

 

However this does leave an important issue,  due to, RAA's abysmal results of negotiations with AAA,  -  that of landing fees.

 

If a landing fee is clearly charged, & you land at that field, you are obliged to pay it,  I don't think there is any argument there.

 

Whilst there is  valid controversy, on councils charging for use of public  airfields, and the insidious use of Avdata, a third party cashing in on those fee's.  this is a secondary argument,  lets not muddy the waters with that just yet.

 

I really need some input & constructive ideas, for an alternate solution, to this issue.

 

One member has suggested, to have RAA pass on the invoices, as in past years,  it became to cumbersome and expensive then,  but with the digital age &  RAA having upgraded it's systems somewhat,  this may now be feasible.

 

While constructive suggestions are welcome from anybody,  this thread is primarily for affected RAA members. So  please don't clog this forum with old rehashed arguments about RAA flyers paying landing fees,   CONSTRUCTIVE  is the primary goal here.  This issue has to be solved.

 

I think another thread perhaps, or latter in this one we could concentrate on passive ways of rewarding councils without charges,  followed by councils with reasonable charges, & penalizing councils with high charges,  or avdata.  we spend a substantial amount of money in towns, when touring,  directing where it goes could be a worthwhile start.   But that is for  later,  lets concentrate on the urgent issue at hand.

 

Thanks you,  Circuitsun.

 

Why doesn’t RAAus act as agent for airport owners the same as AvData and collect the fees paid to them? That way the profit goes back to the pilots, albeit indirectly.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Congratulations on the privacy success.

 

i made the same complaint against CASA but it was rejected “because they are acting in accordance with the regulation.”

 

My argument was that CASA wrote a regulation for itself but that this is trumped by the Privacy Act. A regulation inconsistent with an Act should always fail but they decided differently.

 

perhaps I’ll have another go.

 

 

[KRviator]

One thing the OIAC noted was that for them to investigate my complaint, my privacy had to have been breached - it wasn't sufficient that it could be. In my case, I was lucky as when I was talking to the investigator from the OIAC, at the time I had no evidence it had been, but when I got home from work interstate the following day, there was an invoice for a landing I did at Warnervale over a year ago when I had an ADAHRS sensor failure and didn't feel comfortable returning to Somersby. So I promptly called them back and said "I have that proof now!" and they agreed it was serious enough to pass on to their investigation team.

 

 

[Litespeed]

A issue with RAA doing the fee collection is a vested interest in more fees to collect and higher fees for airports rather than resisting the charges as they should on our behalf.

 

I can see dollars in their eyes now.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Another issue with RAA doing the fee collection would be having the staff to listen to all the CTAF recordings. At cowra (no fee) numbered aircraft would be less than 10% of total  traffic. A lot of cost for not much cash. 

 

 

[facthunter]

IF they compete with Avdata they could do VH too.. . Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

A issue with RAA doing the fee collection is a vested interest in more fees to collect and higher fees for airports rather than resisting the charges as they should on our behalf.

 

I can see dollars in their eyes now.

 

Send the invoice to RAAus, RAAus passes it onto the member. If not paid within X months, aircraft is de-registered. Cost to employ a data-entry clerk in the office 3 days a week: ~$40,000 per year, including super and payroll tax. Hell, I work part-time now, I'll do it for $30,000 a year working from home!

 

Across the 13,000 RAAus members, that's $2.50 a year to keep your private details private.

 

 

[circuitsun]

It would not be practical for RAA to collect direct for the airports, due to the sizable investment in hardware  owned by avdata,  to record CTAF. 

 

or ........mmmm   maybe that hardware is owned by the airports,   .... anyone know ?  

 

 

[circuitsun]

Pardon my ignornance, but could circuitsun and KRviator post a precis  of their complaints to bring us all to the same page?

 

KRviator   summed it up very clearly for my complaint also OME,    he is more eloquent than I

 

 

[KRviator]

So I spoke to one of the Michael's today for nearly an hour and found out something interesting...Apparently pilots - of which I am one - have been hit for landing charges that they incurred before the AAA Agreement was signed - but where the airport owner had retained the flight details and then used the new RAAus-AAA interface to acquire their details and send an invoice over a year later.

 

I don't think I will end up reaching agreement with RAAus about their distribution of my details, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt about it until I get a final response and decide then.

 

 

[circuitsun]

So I spoke to one of the Michael's today for nearly an hour and found out something interesting...Apparently pilots - of which I am one - have been hit for landing charges that they incurred before the AAA Agreement was signed - but where the airport owner had retained the flight details and then used the new RAAus-AAA interface to acquire their details and send an invoice over a year later.

 

I don't think I will end up reaching agreement with RAAus about their distribution of my details, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt about it until I get a final response and decide then.

 

Yes,  I also spoke to M. Monk for some tine & was disappointed to learn the AAA agreement is for 3 yrs before review, & RAA legal team advised NOT to CEASE divulging our personal information.   so is is business as usual.  My complaint will also go to arbitration.   

 

      Apparently  one of the stipulations of this AAA agreement was, it was NOT to be used for backdated invoices.  So I would guess anyone in that category could ignore those invoices.  Again apparently, the airport involved was put on notice that any further abuse would block them from the RAA database.  yidity yidity yidity.  it is this sort of abuse of our privacy that I was concerned about enough to make the complaint.

 

   To give Michael his due, he did listen well & admitted it was handled badly, I suggested an apology to all members,  we'll see about that,  I suspect he will be gagged by legal advice.  He did seem to take on board some of my suggestions and concerns.  I will be waiting & watching, for some sign of changes in the wind,...... but not holding my breath.  

 

     One thing that was confirmed by our conversation,  was the almost total apathy of RAA members.  Appears close to 90% don't give a shit about RAA governance,  [ ..until it affects them negatively.]  So RAA's policy direction is being driven by a very active minority.   That is how democracy ends up working,  &  with apathy & laziness at these levels, we can blame no one but ourselves.  Members will get what they deserve.

 

     I still believe, with a concerted effort from pilots, & administration, we could make a huge difference to landing fees,  Avdata, & diminishing airfields,  but while apathy reigns so supreme, things will continue as they are,  with increasing landing fees & decreasing landing fields,  not a real bright future.

 

 

[spacesailor]

If you Don't like this regime. (RAA)

 

Leave.

 

I did,

 

Miss my flying,  but leaves lots of money for other dreams.

 

spacesailor