plane crash today

[FlyBoy1960]

Wasn't human factors training meant to stop accidents almost completely ?   At least that is what I was told when I did did the course which was a waste of time.

 

 

[facthunter]

Human factors is not a waste of time, as a principle. The course you did may have been.  If you bought a lemon of a car you don't have to walk for the rest of your life as a consequence. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wasn't human factors training meant to stop accidents almost completely ? 

 

No that's not correct.  There is very substantial evidence that Human Factors were responsible for a very high percentage of injuries and fatalities in aviation.  SAOs were encouraged to introduce Human Factors training.

 

 

 

 At least that is what I was told when I did did the course which was a waste of time.

 

The intention was to cover crashes related to HF, such as putting two fuel burn digits back to front and having a fuel exhaustion, checking the gauges but not seeing a high temp, pulling the gear up on the ground, not putting the gear down before landing, taking off in coarse pitch, selecting incorrect trim, leaving the oil filler cap off, leaving engine covers unlatched, leaving a hatch open, taxying without a clearance, and so on. All things which we were trained on and normally do faultlessly, but due to urgency, stress of similar managed to screw up. This is by no means and exhaustive list BTW, we manage to do many other ridiculous things.

 

I touch each instrument during checks in a check + identify process to stop the and regularly have to kick myself and re-train after missing both the initial view and second confirmation. I found the RAA course very poor One example was a pilot who went skin diving then came up out of the water and went flying. It was teach us about the effects of pressure and density altitude on our bodies. Interesting, but nowhere near as relevant as the things we were doing that were killing us.

 

So I can understand you saying the course was a waste of time.

 

However that leaves you exposed to the real HF issues, so I would strongly recommend you do your own study; try to find the CASA case studies; look at the accident discussions where a pilot has obviously done something that under normal circumstances he would never think of doing, and also watch what Facthunter is saying.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Human factors worked for me recently, my friend wanted to show me his new to him Zepher. I said don't land at the farm strip which has obstructed approaches, I will meet you in cowra. I was also much more comfortable flying the unfamiliar aircraft off the big wide runway. No damage no tears, love the Zepher.   

 

 

[Yenn]

I just had a call from an insurance assessor. He wanted to know if I knew which plane it was or who the owner was. Seemed funny to me. The insurance company doesn't know if they have the plane insured. I would have thought that the insurance company could approach the police to get at least the rego details.

 

 

[facthunter]

 I doubt the police would have that. RAAus does and cooperate with the police with investigations, but I wonder if they would do it for the insurance companies. . Nev

 

 

[Guest deanfi]

The pilots name has been released in the media , there was a incedent in August at captain creek with a zenith , not sure if it's same aircraft

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/228365

 

 

[Downunder]

Human factors worked for me recently, my friend wanted to show me his new to him Zepher. I said don't land at the farm strip which has obstructed approaches, I will meet you in cowra. I was also much more comfortable flying the unfamiliar aircraft off the big wide runway. No damage no tears, love the Zepher.   

 

I had just completed a 100 hrly and was going for a quick fly.

 

My friend (who is a pilot and aircraft owner) wanted to come with me.

 

I refused as I NEVER take a passenger on the first flight after a service. 

 

He wasn't happy but "oh well".

 

 

[alf jessup]

Wasn't human factors training meant to stop accidents almost completely ?   At least that is what I was told when I did did the course which was a waste of time.

 

Flyboy1960,

 

Won’t matter how many training courses the regulators administer and make us do, it will not stop people from killing themselves in aircraft.

 

As you would be aware no pilot has really invented a new way of dying in a plane.

 

“We”as in us (pilots) are responsible for a safe passage from start to end of a flight and some of us are quite the contrary.

 

The biggest issue I see is the majority of us always think it happens to someone else when I fact no one is immune and by the statistics it shows.

 

How does one survive one asks? I Can’t answer for others but only can for me.

 

Attitude has a lot to answer for, being aware that a simple mistake can be costly, flying as disciplined as you can, not allowing others to coax you in to a beat up, watching the weather and diverting to an alternate, subduing the urge to get there to your  destination at all cost.

 

There are hundreds of scenarios which you can overcome by being smart and decisive as long as you stick to them.

 

Me my motto is, I have nothing to prove to anyone, it is my decisions that count , fly as professional and as disciplined as you can all the time and never stop learning.

 

Me am I perfect? Far from it, difference is I accepted that and realise that it can happen to me if I become lazy, reckless, foolhardy and more

 

 

[facthunter]

That's all a pretty good summary, but everyone will get "something" from a GOOD Human factors  course. One course doesn't do it. It's an ongoing thing and the people who insisted they didn't need it, often showed up as poor performers. Things like how to scan.... the strange physiology of the eyes. to NOT see what's plainly there, oxygen starvation Hypoxia ,getting home itis. Low sugar& dehydration fatigue effects. It's MORE than what we like to call "common sense" which certainly is not common..at all.

 

  The inappropriate general term "pilot error" should rarely be used once human factors are properly applied. When perfectly good aeroplanes crash or have incidents we like to know why, so we don't do the same. Running out of daylight, quite common these days generally has human factors aspects to it, same as leaving a spanner on an engine or leaving a gust lock in etc.

 

  In a past life I often acted as the Pilot's friend in issues with the CASA equivalent of the day. You know the ones that want US to do HF. THEY introduced the concept of human factors into their investigations in a short burst of real inspiration and after a short while unilaterally withdrew from the process as it nullified their ability to apply penalties and therefore was unacceptable to them, NOW we have the Laws of strict Liability and "WE have deeper pockets than you" mentality, and people wonder WHY I'm cynical. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I really can't see the sense of human factors. I was always into airmanship and considered it extremely important. The theory training from the "College of Knowledge" was always stressing the importance of airmanship.

 

Of course Airmanship is really Human Factors. Oh how I wish the idiots in charge had never decided to degrade Airmanship and bring in a politically correct term to replace it.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's not just an Australian thing, Yenn It's world wide and universally accepted in Airline circles and Aviation Insurance companies, who get involved in this stuff as it costs money as well as killing people and giving an Airline a bad name. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

I really can't see the sense of human factors. I was always into airmanship and considered it extremely important. The theory training from the "College of Knowledge" was always stressing the importance of airmanship.

 

Of course Airmanship is really Human Factors. Oh how I wish the idiots in charge had never decided to degrade Airmanship and bring in a politically correct term to replace it.

 

Airmanship and Human  Factors are two distinctly different subjects.

 

Airmanship could be summed up as flying and aircraft skilfully and with respect.

 

Human Factors could be summed up as screwing up something you've been able to do correctly for years......like not noticing your fuel has drained out.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"human factors."

 

I tried to read the HumanFactors book.

 

BUT

 

found it Stupid,

 

Humpty Dumpty on that hill. Wasted my two bob there.

 

Just money for those students authors, that thought up a way to get money by making it compulsory reading for students.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[bull]

The ultralight fatality list has reached a total of 12 so far this year. That is worse than the previously-worst year, 2013, when 11 fatalities were recorded. 

 

We still have 23 days to years end. Let's hope there's no more UL fatalities this year.

 

Feb 6, 2019 - 2 Fatalities - WA

Apr 14, 2019 - 1 Fatal - QLD

May 30, 2019 - 1 Fatal - NT

Jun 8, 2019 - 1 Fatal - VIC

July 6, 2019 - 2 Fatalities SA

Oct 28, 2019 - 1 Fatal NT

Nov 29, 2019 - 2 Fatalities NSW

Dec 8, 2019 - 2 Fatalities QLD

 

RA-Aus Fatality figures 2011-2016

 

Year      Fatalities    Medically related

 

 

 

 

 

2011

 

 

  6

 

 

       0

 

 

 

 

2012

 

 

  3

 

 

       1

 

 

 

 

2013

 

 

 11

 

 

       2

 

 

 

 

2014

 

 

  6

 

 

       1

 

 

 

 

2015

 

 

  9

 

 

       2

 

 

 

 

2016

 

 

  6

 

 

 

Very sad about another couple of aviators dying in an accident,but it was just that ,,,an AIRCRAFT accident I,m really concerned when you use a generic term"ultralight" as if they are still the old REAL rag and tube ultralights 99% of those fatalities occurred in aircraft that are best described as ,light sport AIRCRAFT not ultralights.  The true "ultralights are few and far between nowadays and painting those accidents as ultralights really will do no service to the remaining TRUE ultralighters who are not flying into terrain at over 100 kts nor trying to get a heavy large ,light sport aircraft into really tight strips that serve true "ultralights well but are not so friendly to the quasi GA aircraft of today.

 

 

[turboplanner]

"human factors."

 

I tried to read the HumanFactors book.

 

BUT

 

found it Stupid,

 

Humpty Dumpty on that hill. Wasted my two bob there.

 

Just money for those students authors, that thought up a way to get money by making it compulsory reading for students.

 

spacesailor

 

If you want to fly find a better book.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Bought it from RAA stand at an air show.

 

As needed for getting certification.

 

now looking for Better Aviation Association .

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Aldo]

There's four here Aldo, one of these?

 

[ATTACH]42531[/ATTACH]

 

Turbs 

 

I can’t see it on the screenshot above but can tell you once the trees are taken into account the effective length is somewhere around 400m, I flew into Agnes Water / 1770 on Sunday morning (as I have a house there and spend every weekend there) the wind was a bit gusty and there were a few bumps around plus the temp was around 30 and I was in the 210, this strip would get a bit of turbulence from the hills around so that may have contributed, getting into that strip 2 up in a Zenith  you would be as slow as possible over the trees then power off flare and land, may have been a gust and clipped a wingtip, may have been an over correction from a gust and picked up a wingtip who knows but flying in and out of this strip would require a good deal of currency and experience.

 

 

[M61A1]

, may have been an over correction from a gust and picked up a wingtip

 

If it was the same Zenith as the previous incident, it may well have been the lack of aileron response when slow. I found standard ailerons on the 601HD to a bit lacking especially when slow. 

 

 

[Guest deanfi]

the deceased pilot states his strip as 700metres long on Zenith group page

 

 

[kgwilson]

Human factors applies to every one who is a human in everything they do but it is especially important in aviation. I was quite surprised that I had to take the course with RAA in 2009 when it was part of the PPL syllabus in NZ in the 1980s but just new to RAA at that time. On the course were a lot of pilots who just pooh poohed the course, the concept etc which I thought at the time was a pretty poor attitude and still do. It didn't help that the course instructors attitude wasn't much better.The course left quite a bit to be desired but it endeavoured to make the students think a bit more about their own shortcomings and vulnerability. On that score alone it was worthwhile.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hopefully the ALA status will be looked at as part of the investigation. If the effective length is 400 m of a 700 m tree boundary the runway extent should be marked on the ground. Same thing applies for the splay; the runway width needs to be marked.

 

 

[turboplanner]

the deceased pilot states his strip as 700metres long on Zenith group page

 

The question will be whether the strip meets the Aeroplane Landing Area guidelines in terms of cleared areas around the strip.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=CASA+ALA&rlz=1C1SQJL_enAU860AU860&oq=CASA+ALA&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.3390j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

[facthunter]

It would have the same problems all strips cut through trees have. Winds produce weird unpredictable effects and STOL planes don't necessarily handle that situation well. A heavier wing loading plane has more penetration through gusts. Nev

 

 

[Thruster88]

The question will be whether the strip meets the Aeroplane Landing Area guidelines in terms of cleared areas around the strip.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=CASA+ALA&rlz=1C1SQJL_enAU860AU860&oq=CASA+ALA&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.3390j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

As you would know Turbo there is no requirement to meet the ALA guidelines for private ops, fortunately it is up to each pilot to decide if they can operate safely.