Fire Fighting Opp's

[skippydiesel]

Other than common sense to stay well clear - is there some official instruction/advise (ERSA ?) about non involved aircraft operating/transiting in/close to an active aerial firefighting area ??

 

What frequency should fire fighting aircraft be operating on  local, area , air to air ?

 

Choppers took over my local airfield the other day - didn't hear a single call on the official 126.7 (not that  I monitored all day)

 

 

[Hunsta]

As a rural firefigher. They would be transmitting on the GRN system. I would assume. Its a digital network. We have gone over to it here in Qld in the last couple of years. But we still have a UHF and VHF system inplace

 

 

[old man emu]

Use this link to check NOTAMs for fire affected areas (I hope) https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/naips/Account/Logon

 

Wasn't the visability at The Oaks fantastically limited earlier this week? I saw an Air Quality Index for PM10 and PM2.5 around 350 which is HAZARDOUS. Good is 35 - 65. With that level of particulates it would be like flying in fog. God help the people of Bathurst today - PM2.5 = 416

 

I wonder if the firegrounds and associated landing grounds are declared Danger Areas for the duration of operations?

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Thanks OME - cant find any reference (not saying its not there) in Air Services/NOTAMS.

 

Yep! The Oaks has been coping the smoke BIG TIME, Sydney on the other hand has merely had a taster. The very gentle easterly will be taking all the smoke toward Bathurst /Blayney area  hope by the time it gets there it has gained some altitude.

 

Choppers are back this morning - seem (bit hard to know for sure) to have been concentrating (for two days now) on a small area between Old Jerusalem & Dairy Road.  Its a deep gully that would benefit from a good (fire) lean out.

 

As a rural firefigher. They would be transmitting on the GRN system. I would assume. Its a digital network. We have gone over to it here in Qld in the last couple of years. But we still have a UHF and VHF system inplace

 

 

 

 

 

I have them on air band 118.75

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Normally work on a fire CTAF plus RFS/CFA radio plus monitor 126.7 or local CTAF if working close. Usually turn 126.7 down because most airfields have this as a CTAF, enough to listen to with FCTAF and Fire radios without listening to every aircraft with 150 miles making a call every leg of the circuit.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Normally work on a fire CTAF plus RFS/CFA radio plus monitor 126.7 or local CTAF if working close. Usually turn 126.7 down because most airfields have this as a CTAF, enough to listen to with FCTAF and Fire radios without listening to every aircraft with 150 miles making a call every leg of the circuit.

 

I am just trying to get the feel of how I (or anyone) should communicate when contemplating committing aviation very close to operational fire bombers - do I just make my usual calls on 126.7 , do I make a call to the bombers on their frequency ???? Do I fly at all ???

 

 

[rgmwa]

Could be wrong, but my recollection is that a 5nm radius control zone automatically comes into effect around fire ops.

 

 

[old man emu]

There's a NOTAM for that - one hopes.

 

It seems that the only information CASA has put out refers to flying drones over scenes of emergencies. They must think that licensed or certificated pilots have more sense than to get in the way of emgergency operations.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It seems to me that a communication protocol of some description might contribute to avoiding any form of conflict.

 

As for an automatic control zone - how is one to know ? - the "bombers" go where they are requested  at a moments notice and fill up with water where they can (could be 5 nm or more away)- all in all quite a  dynamic aerial situation.

 

The bombers operate at low level so its really the departure/approach to the airfield that had the potential for conflict - The Oaks is within the  5 Nm  of the fires, Camden could easily have aircraft at 2500 ft approach  from the west over the fire front. True they could divert to another reporting point but with the N-S length of the fire front they may have to go quite a long way.

 

 

[Downunder]

In my area there is a fire controller and pilot in a Scout aircraft talking on and monitoring the relevant aircraft frequency. I've heard him warn aircraft in the vicinity and make calls about bomber activity.

 

I imagine the bombers and helicopters are busy fighting the fire and coordinating on their designated frequency. 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

The Oaks may be an unusual (in air comms ) situation - fire within 2 Nm - Scout/Controler over fire ground (not necessarily within site of airfield) - Aircraft wishes to depart/arrive The Oaks  - what's the protocol??

 

 

[onetrack]

The media choppers seem to get pretty close to the fire action a lot of the times, judging by the video footage.

 

 

[facthunter]

They used to get real pissed off at NEWS helicopters being around near the drops.. I'd suggest if you don't need to be there, don't be there. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

They used to get real pissed off at NEWS helicopters being around near the drops.. I'd suggest if you don't need to be there, don't be there. Nev

 

As this is where my aircraft resides, it's hard not to be concerned with approach/departure  protocol.  When established airborne, not an issue, can easily be well above or to one side of bombers.  Could still do with some advice.

 

 

[facthunter]

I understand that, and that you are not going to be the pest the News people can be. either. I can't see how a really satisfactory situation can be guaranteed and they are working different frequencies and under pressure all the time. If the vis is below VMC, you certainly shouldn't be there. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

I suppose the best thing to do is pop into The Oaks RFS shed and ask if it's OK to fly your plane out. The could agree to a time for the take off and alert the fire bombers that you are going to operate. I suppose the easiest thing for you to do would be to depart TOA by 7:30 am and land at Camden before 8:00 am. If you are concerned about bushfires getting your plane when it is on the ground, I'd give Wedderburn a big miss.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

If they are anywhere near a CTAF Bombers will communicate their intentions, if there is no confliction they will get on with their business. Fire CTAFs are on a different frequency and normal fire opps are low level except with a major fire where 6 or 8 aircraft may be stacked at different levels. A major fire would have lots of smoke or a pyrocumulus as a warning for private aircraft to stay away. If fire aircraft are working from a town airstrip they will use the allotted frequency as normal aviation practice, they may however arrive and depart with non standard proceedures working in and communicating with local traffic.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I suppose the best thing to do is pop into The Oaks RFS shed and ask if it's OK to fly your plane out. The could agree to a time for the take off and alert the fire bombers that you are going to operate. I suppose the easiest thing for you to do would be to depart TOA by 7:30 am and land at Camden before 8:00 am. If you are concerned about bushfires getting your plane when it is on the ground, I'd give Wedderburn a big miss.

 

Yeah ! - I have noticed the bombers are not early starters but I still have to come home.

 

s for the advice - I already figured the safest place for my baby would be Camden but so far the fire activity has not really threatened since about 3-4 days ago,

 

I understand that, and that you are not going to be the pest the News people can be. either. I can't see how a really satisfactory situation can be guaranteed and they are working different frequencies and under pressure all the time. If the vis is below VMC, you certainly shouldn't be there. Nev

 

This is more of an academic question - Yes its true I am having altitude withdrawal symptoms but I do realise I shouldn't mix it with the big boys/girls, when they are so busy.

 

 

[rgmwa]

This document is a submission to CASA, but describes communications procedures that fire-fighting aircraft use.

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjo26-GkrDmAhXEpOkKHb6gAMsQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fconsultation.casa.gov.au%2Fregulatory-program%2Fdp1610as%2Fconsultation%2Fdownload_public_attachment%3FsqId%3Dquestion.2017-09-07.5299964057-publishablefilesubquestion%26uuId%3D893220661&usg=AOvVaw1vzJTe3sqkKSihYIdYFF6a

 

Each State and Territory also issues its own Standard Operating Procedures. This one is for WA:

 

https://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/publications/tabledpapers.nsf/displaypaper/4011285c9699b744c0348a464825826e0003e3a1/$file/tp-1285.pdf

 

Haven't found any specific reference as to how far a transiting aircraft has to stay clear of fire-fighting operations, but `well away' is probably a good rule. 

 

 

[Yenn]

If you really want to find out what is happening or to announce your intentions, you could call airservices on area frequency. They are using that for aircraft around and above you who are not on your CTAF frequency. If there is any restriction in place they should be able to advise you.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Email received from CASA today:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bushfires: stay away

 

 

This year’s early and intense bushfires have meant a number of firefighting activities are occurring right around the country.

 

Water bombing aircraft operate low level and may change locations at short notice depending on fire conditions.

 

All manned and unmanned aircraft must stay away from bushfires to ensure they do not endanger the essential firefighting operations.

 

A current combined flight information region (FIR) NOTAM warns of ‘unnotified intense aviation activity associated with firefighting operations’ and requires pilots of manned aircraft to remain 5 nm clear of a bushfire horizontally and more than 3000 ft AGL. Unmanned aircraft should only be flown 5 nm horizontally away from a fire and no higher than 120 m or 400 ft AGL. These restrictions remain permanently in place until withdrawn.

 

This is in addition to any temporary restricted areas that also may be declared near large fires.

 

Before setting off, make sure you check fire conditions in your local area and on your planned route.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

A direct P!SS OFF!!!! surely should get through.

 

 

[poteroo]

A sensible procedure is to join your CTAF circuit overhead 500ft above the highest circuit altitude, (which could be 1500' agl for fast traffic). This way you don't get mixed up with non-standard circuit joins at low level, which emergency services aircraft are able to legally make.   Happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

A sensible procedure is to join your CTAF circuit overhead 500ft above the highest circuit altitude, (which could be 1500' agl for fast traffic). This way you don't get mixed up with non-standard circuit joins at low level, which emergency services aircraft are able to legally make.   Happy days,

 

At the fire site what I observed last year with an operation involving an Erikson helicopter and two smaller helicopters, was the Erikson charging in while the smaller ones were still spotting and laying a line in a direction to suit the fire flank, which could be one direction now and a different direction for the the next one. The three helicopters could be momentarily lost to view through the smoke and then ones of them would come charging out in any direction to find a dam. They obviously have their own system to avoid hitting each other but certainly weave in and around each other when the fore flares up, so it would be very difficult for a private pilot to predict where they might come out or where they are going when they do, so it's sound advice just to keep well away. You can't even assume they'll go back to the same dam, because there are controllers on the ground making decisions of when dams are down to the muddy stuff, and calling them in the the next best dam. I haven't seen the Air tractors working or the 737 to know how hard the pilots are working those.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Not sure if it is a requirement but a lot of the fire aircraft are on ozrunways.