Plane Crash Moorabbin 12/12/2019

[Liam]

I couldn’t access the above link about the crash. 

 

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/light-plane-crash-at-moorabbin-leaves-man-seriously-injured-20191212-p53j9i.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

I couldn’t access the above link about the crash. 

 

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/light-plane-crash-at-moorabbin-leaves-man-seriously-injured-20191212-p53j9i.html

 

It came up for me, along with excellent commentary by a Commercial Pilot, but I've subscribed to The Age and that gives me access to all Fairfax papers around Australia; not a bad deal to get unlimited access.

 

 

[djpacro]

We seem to be hearing about quite a few Bristell accidents. Does anyone know what the figures are?

 

Include accidents of similar types by the same designer. Especially interested in stall/spin accidents. I wonder if the ATSB will publish independent flight tests on its stall characteristics conducted a little while back.

 

 

[Butch]

We had a Bristell as a training aircraft at our club. Only flew it a couple of times, seemed very pitchy to me.

 

None of the instructors liked it and it had a few issues with brakes , nose wheel steering and other little items.

 

In the end the club sold it and went back to a newer Tecnam, a far better aircraft. 

 

 

[tafisama]

Include accidents of similar types by the same designer. Especially interested in stall/spin accidents. I wonder if the ATSB will publish independent flight tests on its stall characteristics conducted a little while back.

 

For sure it should be interesting read.My club owns the sister a Roko NG4 which is only flown by members with 50 plus command hours.There is a general feeling no one should be practicing stalls without an instructor.It has violent stall characteristic especially when it yaws just before the stall.Lovely to fly though and stalls below 38knts.

 

 

[Paulmilo]

Don’t know the figures, but having flown a Bristell, I would say I’m not surprised if a student broke the occasional plane.  They look great and fly pretty good, but they are sensitive and I think a student might struggle at times.  I fly a Liberty XL2 and can draw a similar comparison.

 

I’m always perplexed by the number of incidents as the plane is really easy to fly, warns you well ahead of time if you are trying to kill yourself via a stall, yet ppl stall and crash them on landing.  I suspect because they are also quite light on the controls.  

 

 

[tafisama]

Don’t know the figures, but having flown a Bristell, I would say I’m not surprised if a student broke the occasional plane.  They look great and fly pretty good, but they are sensitive and I think a student might struggle at times.  I fly a Liberty XL2 and can draw a similar comparison.

 

I’m always perplexed by the number of incidents as the plane is really easy to fly, warns you well ahead of time if you are trying to kill yourself via a stall, yet ppl stall and crash them on landing.  I suspect because they are also quite light on the controls.  

 

Interesting Paul,I have said the same thing to my colleagues.I fly the Liberty XL2 well because I have flown the Roko.The Libery though is much steadier and balanced on stalls.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Learning to fly in an aircraft that is easy to fly but with sensitive stall characteristics is a recipe for disaster and it seems to catch more experienced pilots by surprise as well. Very large flaps & small ailerons won't provide a lot of control authority at low speed. The rudder is more than half of the vertical stabiliser & aggressive use of this by an inexperienced pilot may also contribute. Also it is going to float in ground effect a lot more than a high wing.

 

The Jab 170 on the other hand which has been given a lot of unfair criticism IMHO is harder to fly but is really strong with a large VS smallish rudder & doesn't have the same ground effect issues with the high wing. Learn on a J170 & once mastered everything else is easy.

 

 

[djpacro]

Learning to fly in an aircraft that is easy to fly but with sensitive stall characteristics ....

 

LSA requirement is "It shall be possible to prevent more than 20° of roll or yaw by normal use of the controls during the stall and the recovery" i.e. during the stall aileron must be able to be used to control roll. FAR 23 certified airplanes are similar but the requirement is 15°. I wonder about the Bristell.

 

 

[NotSoSuperSonic]

To be fair to Soar, when you have a large number of students, you see a few flips, hard landings, aircraft stuck in drainage ditches and broken nose wheels.

 

Their aircraft stack ratio seems to nearly rival that of the WW2 Empire Air Training Scheme.  “Tally Ho Chaps, we need to get you up “Training” before ol’Jerry decides to pull his money out of the equity fund”...

 

 

[Thruster88]

LSA requirement is "It shall be possible to prevent more than 20° of roll or yaw by normal use of the controls during the stall and the recovery" i.e. during the stall aileron must be able to be used to control roll. FAR 23 certified airplanes are similar but the requirement is 15°. I wonder about the Bristell.

 

Dj I thought using aileron in the stall was bad and only rudder should be used to stop any yaw until recovered.

 

Spins are prohibited in the musketeer but I have read that during testing the only way they could get in a spin was to hold aileron against the direction of rotation. 

 

 

[djpacro]

Dj I thought using aileron in the stall was bad and only rudder should be used to stop any yaw until recovered.

 

Spins are prohibited in the musketeer but I have read that during testing the only way they could get in a spin was to hold aileron against the direction of rotation. 

 

Totally agreed.

 

Standard pilot theory is that aileron will have an adverse effect at the stall, particularly when that part of the wing is about stalled. Note the words: "It shall be possible .." so a test pilot must be able to do it ... so the wing design must allow for the outer part to be sufficiently away from the stall for the ailerons to work normally ... with the aircraft in balance etc. Just because a test pilot can do it under test conditions doesn't mean that it is appropriate for unintentional stalls.

 

There is an aerobatic Musketeer however I have not flown one. Aileron against the spin on entry is required on a number of types to get them to spin - but that is also with full back stick and full rudder - unlike the certification stall requirement where the stick is also coming forward and rudder is used to oppose yaw.

 

Spin resistance is the key.

 

 

[kgwilson]

A friend of mine with an RV6 reckons that if you float and don't seem to be slowing or losing height you should side shake the stick which will have the effect of disrupting the boundary layer & the aircraft will come down. I haven't tried this as I have not had the problem. Any comments?

 

 

[Roscoe]

Learning to fly in an aircraft that is easy to fly but with sensitive stall characteristics is a recipe for disaster and it seems to catch more experienced pilots by surprise as well. Very large flaps & small ailerons won't provide a lot of control authority at low speed. The rudder is more than half of the vertical stabiliser & aggressive use of this by an inexperienced pilot may also contribute. Also it is going to float in ground effect a lot more than a high wing.

 

The Jab 170 on the other hand which has been given a lot of unfair criticism IMHO is harder to fly but is really strong with a large VS smallish rudder & doesn't have the same ground effect issues with the high wing. Learn on a J170 & once mastered everything else is easy.

 

I have a J170D Model. Just wondering what unfair criticism you are aware of?

 

 

[kgwilson]

I have a J170D Model. Just wondering what unfair criticism you are aware of?

 

Mainly it was people knocking the engine but that seems to have gone quiet lately. The Coff flying schools J170 engines have always made TBO & the last one was replaced as a brand new engine was cheaper than getting it overhauled. The ergonomics of the cabin are not perfect but then this can be said of many aircraft. Some are downright awful, much worse that the Jab. I did my conversion to RA from GA in a J170 & as soon as I realised (on the first flare) the lack of inertia means you fly them to the ground I found it a delight to fly.

 

 

[NotSoSuperSonic]

The ATSB has released a preliminary animation of the accident via its new Whizz-Bang Media Studio...   Heck, don't be surprised if the ATSB bases their investigations and report off of it.