Science V Doctrine

[skippydiesel]

I always hope that pilots have open, science oriented, fact based decision/opinion making personalities. In recent times this hope has been somewhat challenged, so I pose the following question/debate, to sort the adherent/acceptors of doctrine based opinion from the science based:

 

What is economically more important to Australia's long term wellbeing ?

 

·         Strong control/enforcement of "illegal" drug use and importation

 

OR

 

·         Prevention of importation of  illegal/prohibited  organic material, plants &  animals.

 

AND

 

As the consequence of your opinion,  what funding ratio should apply eg Drugs 80%: Organics 20%

 

 

[old man emu]

1. While ever a good proportion of the population considers the ingestion of known poisons to be "recreational", then eradication of their use by law enforcement will never succeed. Further, as we know, making anything that gives happiness to the masses illegal creates a highly profitable market for those with the money to invest in it, i.e. the rich and powerful. Law enforcement never cuts off the head of the beast, it just nibbles at the fingers.

 

How will the continued use of drugs impact on Australia's long-tern well-being? One can only hope that Darwin's theory expresses itself in the elimination from the gene pool of those without the intellectual ability to foresee the danger of the ingestion of poisons.

 

2. Given that the continent is an evolutionary living museum, maintaining strict quarantine practices is essential to the preservation of the unique flora and fauna here.  We have a multitude of examples of importation of other biological material causing great destruction of flora and fauna. Around my home on the outskirts of Sydney we have rabbits and hares, foxes, cats, dogs, African olive, lantana, paspalum. Rhodes grass, blackberry to name a few. The only exotic animal that hasn't seemed to have driven off the indigenous fauna is the European bee, and perhaps the bee has assisted in improving pollination rates in indigenous flora (only to have the flora ripped out by land developers (see 1 above).

 

So, I'd say throw the money at what might give a return - 90% organics, 10% drugs.

 

 

[Yenn]

I would disagree with OME. The drug problem is of no real consequence, let those who want to kill themselves, do so. If drugs were not illegit, there would be no incentive for criminals to push them, the resulting overdoses would lower the population. Not a bad thing, it would also lower the percentage of no hopers.

 

The importation of organic matter has been allowed by AQIS and we have seen the resulting problems.

 

I vote for 100% to organics.

 

 

[onetrack]

Yenn - Your theory of lowering the percentage of no-hopers in the population by allowing drug use to continue unchallenged isn't going to work, the number of no-hopers in the population is still fairly constant, and possibly even increasing, despite multiple decades of rampant drug use.

 

The drug problem is a money problem. Fight "the drug scourge", it only drives up prices and makes the drug lords and dealers rub their hands with glee. And it makes drug users keen to try the drugs, because they are prohibited.

 

Get the Govt to produce quality-verified drugs at the cheapest price possible, supply them to anyone who wants to try them, along with drug-using health advice, and the number of drug users will drop and the drug lords will have to find some other way to make a living.

 

Nothing destroys profit levels in a market, faster than flooding that market with low-cost product.

 

Places such as Portugal are making small steps towards decriminalisation of small-time drug users, but they still ignore and fail to address the multiple reasons for drug use - boredom, lack of productive jobs, lack of money due to the preceding, mental health issues, and fracturing of social cohesion caused by the corporate model.

 

If the amount of money spent on drug-users punishment was redirected to the new model of providing Govt-issued pure quality drugs, and addressing the multiple reasons behind drug use, then I'm convinced drug use would become a non-issue in our "developed" societies.

 

You may recoil in horror at the idea of the Govt issuing high quality drugs for recreational use. The problem is, we already have readily-available access to thousands of high-quality drugs, all offered to us, to improve our health and well-being.

 

On that basis, Doctors and Pharmaceutical companies are the biggest drug-pushers and drug lords, the world has ever endured.

 

 

[old man emu]

I'm not terribly opposed to the use of drugs by an individual as long as that use does not endanger the physical safety of others.

 

Since 1982 we have had RBT, and that has had a major effect of reducing alcohol related collisions. Although I feel that the men who were the ten schooner a session drinkers have now grown old and RBT has reduced the frequency of driving after a heavy session. I think if you look at the blood alcohol levels reported now, they have dropped from the high 0.250's  being common at the introduction of RBT to the 0.08 - 0.125 range that is more common now.

 

I don't want to share the road with a person whose driving ability has been reduced by the ingestion of drugs of any kind, or the specific drug, alcohol. There are enough inconsiderate, "it's all about me" mongrels on the roads already without having to add more intoxicated ones.

 

 

[Litespeed]

We spend 10's billions yearly on the war on drugs in looking, finding imports. Then locking up people, mostly for small things related to addiction. The actions from illegality are the big push factors.

 

We goal thousands for petty crime and have a huge divide of white collar vs everything else. 

 

The industrial criminal industry is very big business and increasingly privatised for profit motive.

 

We have privatised the ultimate government sanction- prison for profit.

 

On society scale that says everything. 

 

95% to nature

 

And make sensible legal access with proper health support. Then fill all the spare spaces with white collar crimes.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

To help the debate along a bit - You might want to consider the long term implications of:

 

What happens if the drug war is stopped?

 

In my humble opinion, I agree with some of the observations above . True the consequences of addiction (sometimes a one off indulgence) can be dir for the individual family & friends but in the "scheme of things" I would suggest of little impact on society as a whole and nil on the economic well being of the country

 

Leave our Quarantine Laws & Enforcement as is ?

 

My opinion - If we don't take quarantine seriously & at this stage it would seem we don't (ref "Border Patrol" tv program - I have yet to see a transgressor receive a significant penalty) the introduction of  a disease or pest with the potential impact of African Swine Fever or Foot & Mouth, will have dire economic & personal impacts on our Agricultural industry & its people and  our unique natural environment, for generation to come.

 

The reason I posed this question is, that conventional doctrine, supports a huge police/border effort to control "illegal" drugs and by comparison, the real bogey (in my mind), in this story, undesirable biologicals entering our country, is given relatively little support.

 

All sorts of political/religious/medical/police "do -gooders", are completely sold on the need to pursue a vigorous & expensive "war against drugs", while at the same time showing little more than token interest in the biological security of our nation, its people & natural environment.

 

What has this to do with aircraft/flying ? Nothing really, except perhaps the airline passengers bringing biologicals into the country. I just thought it illustrated, quite nicely, how individuals (making up a significant % of our population) can be manipulated to accept/support what is in fact a preposterous/illogical position (official DOCTRINE), while almost ignoring the real problem (SCIENTIFIC fact) - Human nature ????

 

 

[Litespeed]

Unfortunately reality is relative.

 

Some refuse to see what does not suit their worldview. Esp

 

 When money or belief is concerned. 

 

Nothing matters except their power and position. 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I agree with all you have said - I guess I  am surprised that there is no real difference in the pilot community ,whom I had higher expectations for.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Unfortunately reality is relative.

 

Some refuse to see what does not suit their worldview. Esp

 

 When money or belief is concerned. 

 

Nothing matters except their power and position. 

 

Absolutely true. It is a psychological truism ( with its own name ( Eg somebodies phenomenon - which I have forgotten ) where humans grab a position on something usually at the initial outset without consideration of the evidence based entirely on their own feelings about it ( based on upbringing more than anything) and then look for, grasp and where appropriate ignore evidence to the contrary and even fabricate evidence or magnify the relevance of minimal data to support their position. 

 

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I agree with all you have said - I guess I  am surprised that there is no real difference in the pilot community ,whom I had higher expectations for.

 

Trouble is there is no scientific evidence on this topic  that is black and white. 

it all depends on how much weight you put on the shades of grey. 

 

we have irrefutable evidence that prohibition doesn’t work completely - always some people will try it regardless, some might be attracted to it because it is illegal ( and might not have bothered if it was legal). 

 

but we also have irrefutable evidence that prohibition does stop many people from trying something that is illegal. 

 

How  many people in a population will fit each of the above categories varies and what percentages are needed to convince people that the effort is justified or not are also completely variable. 

 

to some people, if just one kid is kept from trying drugs it is worth it, for someone else unless something is  100% effective then they would rather not try. 

 

 

there is nothing scientific about it because it’s all about perception and acceptance. 

might as well try claim a scientifically valid  answer to “What is your favourite colour?”

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

All true Jaba - but what I was trying to highlight is that people can  take a position based on no more than Government/Religious doctrine and /historic (but no longer relevant) experience  despite what science and factual evidence are saying (check out the climate debate). I have sought to highlight this using the drugs V biological hazard because these two areas of "law enforcement" appear together in a popular TV program. 

 

In the drug importation situation the perpetrator goes to jail for a very long time after which they may be deported.

 

In the biological importation the perpetrator may receive a $0 - 200 fine (subject to the customs persons whim) be given a good  talking to and let into the country.

 

It would seem that most of our population & certainly all of those in power/authority think this is as it should be, despite ALL the science/factual evidence showing exactly the opposite scenario should prevail.

 

This is not a shade of grey debate (or at least not in my mind) - Drug addiction,tragic tho it may be for the individual, their family & friends, it is as nothing compared with the potential impact of  introducing a disease/pest into our environment.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

on the question of bringing huge amounts of food in baggage ,why are these people so dumb,saying no i don,t have  any food and produce cases full of it ,and it seems to be only middle eastern and asian people doing it, they need to be slapped with thousands of dollar fines and if only visiting cancel their visas , we are an island and cannot allow infestation of  diseases from other countries that would decimate our already fragile rural industries

 

 

[facthunter]

Most of the devastating plants and animals have been brought in by original settlers  rabbits lantana etc or misguided "situation fixers"( Cane toads) in the past , Now it's more failure of quarantene . Migratory birds are bringing water plants to coastal NT  (Kakadu) and diseases to the mainland generally NEVER pick up a dying migratory bird.

 

   Our emerging prawn farms were eliminated by frozen imported uncooked prawns. Fire ants are spreading in Queensland  which will change the nature of the whole country if it continues. There's some infection of bees also as well as glyphosate showing up in everything ALL beers at a recent Beer event in Germany had traces of Glyphosate in them. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

on the question of bringing huge amounts of food in baggage ,why are these people so dumb,saying no i don,t have  any food and produce cases full of it ,and it seems to be only middle eastern and asian people doing it, they need to be slapped with thousands of dollar fines and if only visiting cancel their visas , we are an island and cannot allow infestation of  diseases from other countries that would decimate our already fragile rural industries

 

I agree with everything, other than the racial typecasting - all nationalities seem to do it, from the idiot who forgets to eat the fruit/snack they packed in their carry on baggage,  to the intentional importation of plant/seeds by people seeking an advantage in their agricultural business. There are even rabid collectors of animals/birds/reptiles etc trying to smuggle eggs/young etc. Even the much lauded thoroughbred industry tries (with success ) to water down quarantine regulations for the importing of horses  - how do you thing Equine Influenza got into Au? (next time it may be something truly devastating). I dont remember hearing about anyone actually receiving a meaningful penalty for that one (well connected may be ??)

 

The introduction of fire ants and several bee diseases/parasites is probably due to the failure to adequately fumigate timber  &/or timber products again our Government's failure to adequately resource the border security people AND have really stiff penalties - jail time and huge fines for offenders, not just a slap on the rist for a company.

 

I personally think its a hanging offence  - but then I am a retired agriculturalist and a bit extreme.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Most of the devastating plants and animals have been brought in by original settlers  rabbits lantana etc or misguided "situation fixers"( Cane toads) in the past , Now it's more failure of quarantene . Migratory birds are bringing water plants to coastal NT  (Kakadu) and diseases to the mainland generally NEVER pick up a dying migratory bird.

 

   Our emerging prawn farms were eliminated by frozen imported uncooked prawns. Fire ants are spreading in Queensland  which will change the nature of the whole country if it continues. There's some infection of bees also as well as glyphosate showing up in everything ALL beers at a recent Beer event in Germany had traces of Glyphosate in them. Nev

 

I dont disagree Nev - but the past, often well meaning, actions of  our ignorant forbearers is done - we now need to look the the present/future with the benefit of the at inglorious experience and impose meaningful penalties on those who breach our quarantine regulations. 

 

Perhaps the removal of a hand for first offenders, with further, more  significant, amputations for repeat offenders and send visitors back to country of origin  on next flight and whatever health service is available for freshly severed limbs. Might get everyone attention ?

 

 

[Litespeed]

Now that might have some merit for a proper federal corruption commission. 

 

We could include penalties for failure to answer or fail to recall repeatedly. Would liars have their tongue cut out?

 

Environmental vandals could be tied onto a fire ant nest.

 

Illegal fishing poachers and ocean polluters could be handed over to the sharks.

 

Start a big bushfire, and a reenactment of the wickerman awaits. 

 

Failure to cleanup mining sites or gross pollution would find a hole in the ground awaits.

 

Could have a lot of impact but I am sure they would have objections.

 

We need a better system but making poor sharks eat vile human scum is not cool.

 

 

[M61A1]

Fire ants are spreading in Queensland 

 

I has a relative who worked for DPI on the Fire Ant issue. It was meant to be a short term contract while they quickly eradicated them. I get the impression that most of them realised they wouldn't have a job if they actually eradicated the Fire Ants (relative included).

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There was a big Argentine ant scare in Sydney about 1962. They paid money to kids who found nests. We looked but didn’t find any.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi PMC Yeah! "bounties" work well but like M61A1's contractors you have to be careful of people who want to maintain the money supply.

 

 

[Yenn]

It wasn't just in olden days that people imported bad agricultural products. A few years ago the citrus orchards around Emerald were completely removed because someone had imported superior stock from overseas. It was infected.

 

Fire blight, an apple disease was found in a botanical garden in Melbourne. The Kiwis have for years been trying to send apples to us and Fire Blight has been the reason their importation was not allowed.

 

Funny thing the diseased material in Melbourne was found by a Kiwi. Equally funny, nobody else could find any trace of it, in the garden or elsewhere.

 

The supermarkets have been allowed to import cheap prawns form overseas. That caused the complete failure of the prawn industry in NSW because of white spot disease.

 

 

[facthunter]

 People were using frozen uncooked prawns as bait. Cooked is usually OK but that's wiped out a potential booming industry before it even got a good start. Pity as the cost of production of the farmed prawns was very low. Nev

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Yep same issue with Giant Rats Tail grass...from Gympie north it is infesting all the pasture and its literally uncontrollable.....it was bought in as a cattle grass.....well cattle cant exist on it

 

Some DPI scientist said ok to that....so can we actually believe science....I propose that question

 

Doctrine to me says one word...religion....I pass totally on that crap

 

 

[octave]

Yep same issue with Giant Rats Tail grass...from Gympie north it is infesting all the pasture and its literally uncontrollable.....it was bought in as a cattle grass.....well cattle cant exist on it

 

Some DPI scientist said ok to that....so can we actually believe science....I propose that question

 

Doctrine to me says one word...religion....I pass totally on that crap

 

 My understanding was that it was not brought in as cattle grass with approval but was brought in accidentally in contaminated  pasture seed.

 

https://www.business.qld.gov.au/industries/farms-fishing-forestry/agriculture/land-management/health-pests-weeds-diseases/weeds-diseases/invasive-plants/restricted/giant-rats-tail-grass

 

Giant rat's tail grass was introduced to Australia around the early 1960s in contaminated pasture seed. S. natensis is now found from Rockhampton in Queensland to Port Maquarie in New South Wales, while S. pyramidalis is found from Cooktown in Queensland to the New South Wales central coast. Ecoclimatic modelling suggests giant rat's tail grass is suited to conditions present in 30% of Australia (223 million hectares).

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Yep same issue with Giant Rats Tail grass...from Gympie north it is infesting all the pasture and its literally uncontrollable.....it was bought in as a cattle grass.....well cattle cant exist on it

 

Some DPI scientist said ok to that....so can we actually believe science....I propose that question

 

Doctrine to me says one word...religion....I pass totally on that crap

 

Science is definitely fallible (usually as a result of human failing) but which would you bet on doctrine or science ??

 

In my world, doctrine is the story handed down to the faithful - could be politics, religion or a combination of both. It can be true or false or again a bit of both (always a good ploy). What distinguishes doctrine, is it is handed down as the truth, without  factual evidence and is accepted and regurgitated by the faithful as the only truth, usually vigorously (sometimes violently) defended against naysayers/heretics/questioner's in general. I see propaganda as doctrine - it is an attempt to persuade the population of  the "rightness"  of the Government' position (whatever the subject) usually so that Government can pursue some doubtful agenda(s) with the support (or at least without resistance) of the population.