Costs of owning ......

[Wirraway]

Greetings, and just wondering what are the costs of owning a Rotax 4 stroke???

 

Some might say if you have to ask the question, then you can't afford it........but......

 

Just wondering a ball park figure for the 5 year hose replacement, and costs involved in replacing parts at 50 hourly, 100 hourly, etc., inspections???

 

Or, how much an hour do you put aside for maintenace???

 

Answers much appreciated.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Wirraway,

 

Hard to get an approximate as I don’t really track the costs.

 

Oil change and filter every 50 hours about $60, plugs every 100 about $55.

 

Engine replacement at 2000 hours about $13 per hour put away every hour flown.

 

5 yearly hose replacement is about $1100 in parts including the fuel pump ( but you don’t get every hose you need from Rotax)

 

L1 you can do it yourself or price would vary with different L2 maintainers.

 

odds and sods with exhaust springs ect.

 

i would say it costs me in the vicinity of about $50 per hour as I owe my plane outright that includes fuel.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alf

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Wirraway,

 

Hard to get an approximate as I don’t really track the costs.

 

Oil change and filter every 50 hours about $60, plugs every 100 about $55.

 

Engine replacement at 2000 hours about $13 per hour put away every hour flown.

 

5 yearly hose replacement is about $1100 in parts including the fuel pump ( but you don’t get every hose you need from Rotax)

 

L1 you can do it yourself or price would vary with different L2 maintainers.

 

odds and sods with exhaust springs ect.

 

i would say it costs me in the vicinity of about $50 per hour as I owe my plane outright that includes fuel.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alf

 

Agree Alf;  also best to include all fuel lines and filters replacement at 5 years and the start battery, plus coolant so maybe add on $500. Cheers

 

 

[KRviator]

FWIW - and it isn't a Rotax - but I don't have a 'kitty' for anything to do with my flying. My spare $$ go straight onto the mortgage and if I need a new cylinder assembly, battery or gear leg, then I'll redraw the $$ from the home loan......

 

Now, that being said, I have an OX-340S and all I have done so far (it was a factory-new engine), is a couple of oil changes and 1 set of plugs (dual EI so no budget for magneto overhauls either)

 

 

[skippydiesel]

The 5 year rubber replacement costs quoted above are excessive, if you shop around & are doing your own work - probably reasonable if getting someone else to do it for you.

 

No comment on factory built - you gets what youse pays for - plus plus.

 

Kit built aircraft:

 

The battery and fuel pump can be replaced "on condition" - completely dotty to replace items that are in perfect working order, will not impact on safety when they start to fail and will usually give ample warning of impending failure.

 

Batteries should always be replaced at the first sign of reduced cranking power (assuming the battery has had adequate time to be fully recharged). In most instances a motorcycle battery will give you equal or better performance than a dedicated aircraft type at a fraction of the cost - I use  SSB Powersport XR Series AGM Battery PN RB16CL-B.  - $140 in 2013 & still going strong.

 

The fuel pump has a "bleed" line which, when inspected pre flight checks,  will indicate a fuel weep - replace ASAP.  You should also have a fuel pressure gauge which will show deterioration in performance, usually before complete failure ( know the normal indication for your engine). In the unlikely event of an in-flight failure, turn on your fuel boost pump - get you home/nearest airfield.

 

The Rotax recommended 5 year rubber replacement , should always include all fuel, breather & coolant hoses/lines and common sense would add in replacing the coolant while you are on the job (unless you using the very expensive Evans).

 

Fuel filter replacement will depend on what you use - serviceable filters just need a careful clean using carbi cleaner & compressed air. Throw away jobs should probably be replaced at 100 hr intervals. I filter all fuel into my aircraft tanks, so I rarely see "stuff" in my fuel filters or carbi float bowl.

 

Rotax recommend 100 hr oil/filter changes for ULP fed engines - I do 50 hrs for the oil (cause I am anal) & 100 hrs for the filter.  If Rotax are happy with 100 hrs, changing the oil @ 50  is slightly over the top but not too expensive - most contaminants will be removed in the old oil, so there is absolutely no need to change the filter @ 50 hrs.

 

From memory, spark plugs have a 200 hr replacement interval. If you really wanted to you could clean them up, if electrodes are OK (gap/condition) insulator is good (no cracks missing bits), there should be no safety or performance issue with refitting for another 200 hrs. I replace mine @ 200 hrs.

 

There are very many Rotax 912/914 engines operating "on condition" so the calendar and engine hour TBO's are quite arbitrary, for well maintained & managed engines.

 

Quite a few parts can be acquired through Repco Aerospace (Eg Gates hoses & Castrol coolant concentrate) Ducati Aerospace (Eg radiator cap) and it's always worthwhile checking out overseas suppliers but be sure to factor in the plus delivery/insurance cost to your exchange rate calculations.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

2 weeks ago the 5 year rubber replacement quote from Floods was $1306.00 this includes the fuel pump

 

 

[skippydiesel]

2 weeks ago the 5 year rubber replacement quote from Floods was $1306.00 this includes the fuel pump

 

All the best for the New Year Kyle -

 

• Are you able  to provide an itemised list ?
   
  
• Leaving off the fuel pump will make a significant downward improvement.
   
  
• How does the Flood price compare with USA & European suppliers ?
   
  

 

[Kyle Communications]

No worries  Same to you and your family, here it is. I have a contact now in the UK where I can get the kit cheaper if i want it. I did my own 5 year using better hose than Rotax supply and the carb adaptors I use a Mikuni they they half the price..a little heavier as they are steel inners but better quality and half the price. I didnt replace the fuel pump though as why toss something that is working fine and mine si the better one not this new one. Although Rotax say now that you are supposed to replace it. I will need to do Mabel's engine before it goes back into the aircraft and I will replace that fuel pump though

 

Also I need to do the engine for the S21 that I am getting a big bore done on as well. That is a 2015 engine so will inspect the fuel pump before I make that decision. I think I will do the same as I did with the girlfriend and source all the parts myself..that way I KNOW what is going on the engine

 

QUO5YEAR.pdf

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Not sure what you mean Kyle - have you been able to make a significant saving on the Flood quote ??

 

Had a look at the Flood quote there are a few items that I dont recognise/use:

 

• 860985
   
  
• 860660
   
  
• 256035
   
  
• 860826
   
  
• 851645
   
  

 

Please explain what  the above are & why you would purchase from Floods eg 851645 for $75.84  + 10% = $83.425 look to be hose clamps (??)  for $3.34 each - perfectly adequate Gates or similar high quality  FI clamps can be had for a fraction of this price from your Repco store (can purchase by the box).

 

•  860826 &  956142 - whats are these fore ?
   
  

 

• 922072 - appears to be the "radiator cap" for $80.34 + GST = $88.37 - I purchased mine from a Ducati motorcycle agent in Sydney for about 1/2 this price.
   
  

 

• 983115 - Like you I would not be replacing this item under routine maintenance
   
  

 

As for the rest:

 

• 922250 & 922192 - 17mm ID coolant hose. Hard to find coolant hose in this ID, so I do purchase this from Floods (or similar).
   
  

 

The rest of the "stuff" I recognise as Rotax specific parts, that I would purchase from a recognised Rotax agent here (Floods) or OS depending on who gave me the most cost effective deal.

 

My 25mm formed/shaped Gates radiator hoses come from Repco Aerospace, as does all my Gates fuel line .

 

I await your response with great anticipation.

 

 

[Wirraway]

Thanks for the responses. Appreciated.

 

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I respect everyone's opinion and position on the issue, proponents of the Jab engine refer to cost as a big advantage, and no "expiry date" on the engine, although as I have learnt, the Rotax can be run on condition past the use by date.

 

Does one spend a relatively reasonable amount of money $25-35 thou on something like a J160 with reasonable payload and speed, and keep one's fingers crossed, or pay extra for a Rotax equipped engine?????

 

I wish I had the money to not have to make this decision!!!!!!  But then again, I'm lucky to be in this position anyway.  ?

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Wirraway

 

Wil you have a hangar or flying off you own property? As the cost of hangarage is a factor could be 3 or 4k per year or more or less. 

 

Re an aircraft; whatever you look at spend the money on a detailed appraisal as there could be some aircraft that are full of bad history or poor maintenance and you don't want any bad surprises.  For the amount there will be Jabs, also some light wings with 912 Rotax also just for hour building a well priced and nice two stroke rotax xair is nice. If you buy right should be able to resell. 

 

Another consideration is if you enjoy maintenance and competent or willing to learn the owner maintenance reduces the costs.

 

Cheers and best wishes in the aircraft journey.

 

Thanks for the responses. Appreciated.

 

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I respect everyone's opinion and position on the issue, proponents of the Jab engine refer to cost as a big advantage, and no "expiry date" on the engine, although as I have learnt, the Rotax can be run on condition past the use by date.

 

Does one spend a relatively reasonable amount of money $25-35 thou on something like a J160 with reasonable payload and speed, and keep one's fingers crossed, or pay extra for a Rotax equipped engine?????

 

I wish I had the money to not have to make this decision!!!!!!  But then again, I'm lucky to be in this position anyway.  ?

 

Wirraway,

 

Hard to get an approximate as I don’t really track the costs.

 

Oil change and filter every 50 hours about $60, plugs every 100 about $55.

 

Engine replacement at 2000 hours about $13 per hour put away every hour flown.

 

5 yearly hose replacement is about $1100 in parts including the fuel pump ( but you don’t get every hose you need from Rotax)

 

L1 you can do it yourself or price would vary with different L2 maintainers.

 

odds and sods with exhaust springs ect.

 

i would say it costs me in the vicinity of about $50 per hour as I owe my plane outright that includes fuel.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alf

 

Agree Alf;  also best to include all fuel lines and filters replacement at 5 years and the start battery, plus coolant so maybe add on $500. Cheers

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Wirraway,

 

Hard to get an approximate as I don’t really track the costs.

 

Oil change and filter every 50 hours about $60, plugs every 100 about $55.

 

Engine replacement at 2000 hours about $13 per hour put away every hour flown.

 

5 yearly hose replacement is about $1100 in parts including the fuel pump ( but you don’t get every hose you need from Rotax)

 

L1 you can do it yourself or price would vary with different L2 maintainers.

 

odds and sods with exhaust springs ect.

 

i would say it costs me in the vicinity of about $50 per hour as I owe my plane outright that includes fuel.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alf

 

Alf - Are you using AvGas in your Rotax ?

 

If not, what is the rational supporting your 1/2 of many of the Rotax recommended service intervals? 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Not sure what you mean Kyle - have you been able to make a significant saving on the Flood quote ??

 

Had a look at the Flood quote there are a few items that I dont recognise/use:

 

• 860985
   
  
• 860660
   
  
• 256035
   
  
• 860826
   
  
• 851645
   
  

 

Please explain what  the above are & why you would purchase from Floods eg 851645 for $75.84  + 10% = $83.425 look to be hose clamps (??)  for $3.34 each - perfectly adequate Gates or similar high quality  FI clamps can be had for a fraction of this price from your Repco store (can purchase by the box).

 

•  860826 &  956142 - whats are these fore ?
   
  

 

• 922072 - appears to be the "radiator cap" for $80.34 + GST = $88.37 - I purchased mine from a Ducati motorcycle agent in Sydney for about 1/2 this price.
   
  

 

• 983115 - Like you I would not be replacing this item under routine maintenance
   
  

 

As for the rest:

 

• 922250 & 922192 - 17mm ID coolant hose. Hard to find coolant hose in this ID, so I do purchase this from Floods (or similar).
   
  

 

The rest of the "stuff" I recognise as Rotax specific parts, that I would purchase from a recognised Rotax agent here (Floods) or OS depending on who gave me the most cost effective deal.

 

My 25mm formed/shaped Gates radiator hoses come from Repco Aerospace, as does all my Gates fuel line .

 

I await your response with great anticipation.

 

I got all the hose from my mate who is in the auto industry..its all top quality hose I cant remember the name of the brands but when I get back home as I am away up at my farm until late next week. The right angle hose I got from him but it was longer and I just cut it to the right length the 16 clamps are those horrible clip things...I didnt use them I used good quality screw type clamps that have a sliding leaf..sort of like a normal wormdrive clamp but different...like the ones supplied in a savannah kit. The 17mm water hose is no drama he got it and all the oil hose he supplied..that was not the cheapest but was good. The carb interfaces to the manifold I used the mikini ones I bought from Cairns. I didnt replace the radiator cap but plan to do it but it looks and feels fine when compared to a new one

 

 

[skippydiesel]

So you did do your 5 year rubber for a lot less - thought so.

 

When the time comes to replace the radiator cap, go to your Ducati parts supplier. I replaced my original low pressure cap after about 17 years of service - still working. Same sort of story  for my fuel pump - put the new design in, with the drain hose & the old one on the shelf  for use in an emergency.

 

Would still like to know what all those items are for - much longer list than for my installation

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I just went through and replaced all the water oil and fuel hoses..all the clamps and the carb to manifold adaptors because they do split. The carbs were done with new diaphrams and seals but not from Floods

 

 

[skippydiesel]

The cost of owning an aircraft is highly variable. Some of the factors that should go into your calculations -

 

• Purchase price - Not the end of the story - are there added cost to get this aircraft up to speed/legally/safely into the air. Purchase price should be looked at in conjunction with the time you expect to own the aircraft.
   
  
• Will it be based on a private property/in a farm shed, compared with the very very much more expensive public airfield and in a hanger.
   
  
• RAA (Kit or Factory built) or GA
   
  
• Maintenance/repairs - will you do some, all of your own or get the services of a LAME. Again big differences in cost.
   
  
• Aircraft construction - Composite airframes tends toward the least cost by a significant margin over metal. My guess wood & fabric probably the most costly. As in all things, there will be significant variations to this generalisation, based on such things as climate where aircraft based, what the aircraft is used for, etc.
   
  
• Engine - The only costs worth looking at our real world.
   
  

 

Fuel ULP V AvGas.  Expected consumption /hour . The same engine in a different airframe  will be used (power settings) very differently. Draggy airframes usually require high power setting/high per hour fuel consumption. Slippery airframes the opposite. Again a lot depends on how the aircraft is used. 

 

Service costs per 100 hrs. Oil & filters will be much the same price BUT how often are they changed and what is the oil capacity. What unique cost are required by an engine.

 

Purchase price is but one component to the annual cost over the life of  an engine. An engine that has a higher service/maintenance /fuel cost will eat away at the initial higher purchase price of a more economical engine.

 

• Sale price - In most instances you are very unlikely to increase or maintain the value of your aircraft. You will get something for it and that value needs to go into your calculations.
   
  

 

[skippydiesel]

Is been mentioned before (probably many times) however for the cash strapped (or just sensible) aspiring owner, syndication/partnership is a way of getting into a much better aircraft (even a new one) at a lower/same cost.

 

It's not a "free lunch" there are many pitfalls but with care (establishing well thought out  DOCUMENTED rules, including exit of a member - DO NOT HAVE UNDOCUMENTED UNDERSTANDINGS) it can work well. There are many excellent models out there.

 

The reality is that after the "honeymoon" passion has wained, individual pilots will probably do way less than 100 hrs /annum - hard to justify sole ownership at this rate.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Rotax engines are much more expensive than Jabirus. My 700hour Jabiru engine can be replaced by a new Jabiru engine and the total outlay for them both will still be less than one Rotax.

 

Of course, the Jabiru engine has about half the parts count of a Rotax. And among the parts difference, there is the liquid cooling system which makes the Rotax better to operate in hot weather. 

 

 

[Thruster88]

 

Rotax engines are much more expensive than Jabirus. My 700hour Jabiru engine can be replaced by a new Jabiru engine and the total outlay for them both will still be less than one Rotax.

 

Of course, the Jabiru engine has about half the parts count of a Rotax. And among the parts difference, there is the liquid cooling system which makes the Rotax better to operate in hot weather. 

 

Cowra aero club changed out a 100hp Rotax with 1500tt for $18k change over this year. The old engine with 500 to run was easy to sell because people have faith in them. To make a fair comparison a 100hp Jabiru would cost in the middle of the 4 and 6 cylinder so  $18,425 from the back of sport pilot, core value zero and only 1000tbo. For high utilisation aircraft the Rotax makes more economic sense to me. 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Alf - Are you using AvGas in your Rotax ?

 

If not, what is the rational supporting your 1/2 of many of the Rotax recommended service intervals? 

 

Skippy, 

 

Nope, only use avgas when I have no other option, to me oil is cheap and so are spark plugs.

 

Can’t for the of life of me let the oil go to 100 hrs it is dirty enough a 50 in my book.

 

plugs, I have let them go to about 150 on the odd occasion, I mean realistically you could probably get 300 or more out of them if you go by how many miles people do in cars in them.

 

Each to our own I guess, I can afford it at this point in time.

 

What I don’t agree on but abide by is the bullish!t hose change every 5 years, that is a con imo.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Rotax engines are much more expensive than Jabirus. My 700hour Jabiru engine can be replaced by a new Jabiru engine and the total outlay for them both will still be less than one Rotax.

 

Of course, the Jabiru engine has about half the parts count of a Rotax. And among the parts difference, there is the liquid cooling system which makes the Rotax better to operate in hot weather. 

 

Yes Bruce they are.

 

But you get what you pay for i guess.

 

yes a Rotax valve cost $240 bucks and a Jab one $40, but the Rotax one will do more or less 5,000 hours compared to 500 for the Jab.

 

 

[Wirraway]

Folks, I appreciate all the responses, Skippy Diesel, amongst others, raises important points which I have considered, including hangarage.

 

To me, one of the advantages of owning is completing training for endorsements in my own aircraft, rather than paying for one. As I read the manual, 5 hours for a PAX endorsement, plus a minimum of 12 for a cross country endorsement.

 

Another factor in my life is that I am a shift worker, and the "5 p.m. knock off on a Friday" is rarely on a Friday and never at 5 p.m. Owning my own means I can fly when it suits me, not when it suits the person hiring out the aircraft. 

 

I have considered virtually every point raised above, and I appreciate your inputs. 

 

As I have previously mentioned, taking into account speed, payload, price and maintenace, the best airframes are probably the Jab 160, followed by the Jab 170, because the 170 is more expensive. 

 

The engine is the issue.

 

But, time is (sort of) on my side. This seed of this journey was planted in 1963, and I hope I have at least a decade or two to go. Cheers.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Careful Alf you will get branded a jab basher ?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I sure agree with Alf about replacing rubber stuff on condition.  If the rubber has not gone hard and it has no surface cracking show when you squeeze it, then it is in good condition and you do more harm than good by replacing it. ( Read Mike Busch on the subject of maintenance induced failures. There was a classic example here some years ago when a Jabiru force-landed after a hose replacement job. )

 

But the 500 hour life of a Jabiru valve is news to me. Mine have done 700 hours and still work ok, but I'm planning on getting a new generation 4 engine at 1000 hours if I last that long in flying. Anybody wanna bet that the Jabiru engine fails before 1000 hours? 

 

 

[SplitS]

Real aero engines are air cooled.