Options for good useful load at low price?

[rtyuiop]

Hi folks,

 

Planning to to try to learn to fly something recreational in 2020, and looking at my options.  Big limitation is that I’m a big guy at ~115kg - losing some weight is a goal but even if I get rid of lots of excess I’m still around 100kg.

 

So I’m trying to figure out my best option to end up with a license and something I can fly for fun on the weekends without breaking the bank...  Something with second hand availability would be good, or I don’t mind the idea of building a kit, but it’d have to be a fairly easy build, don’t think I can manage a 2000 hour build, and I don’t have the skills to do it quickly!

 

Microlights would be ideal but payload and seat weight limits might rule them out.  Several LSAs like the foxbat solve the useful load issue but seem to be expensive.  GA solves the load issue and there’s some older aircraft that are affordable, but training and running costs probably rule it out.  Powered parachutes look fun but I would like the ability to do short cross countries occasionally!

 

,

 

Any thoughts?  Is my best option to train on LSAs and rent hourly until a good second hand comes up at the right price?  If I’m lucky the LSA weight limit might go up in the meantime which would give some much needed flexibility!

 

Cheers,

 

Danny

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I was learning to fly a savannah when I was 140kg  so its not a drama. I am 105kg now and can take a pax and a lot of fuel...most decent RAA aircraft are empty at around 300 to 340kg  so you have 260 or 280 easily for fuel, you and pax if you take one

 

 

[Downunder]

Second hand Foxbat.....

 

Some training facilities put them up for sale at X hours and buy new again.

 

If they know there is a buyer waiting for an aircraft you may get a good deal.....

 

 

[rtyuiop]

Thanks to you both - good to hear LSAs are a reasonable option!  Just need to figure out how to afford one ;).

 

Guess it’s time to get out and talk to some schools!

 

 

[rtyuiop]

Been digging through classifieds - is finding a used LSA with good useful load for under $50K AUD realistic, or do I need to up my budget?  There does seem to be some options starting at $60K, but that's more than I was hoping to spend (especially given the cost of a nice new Airborne trike!).

 

 

[spacesailor]

A lot of two seat trikes have  a good pay-load, so you only fly solo untill that extra weight gets lost.then it's up up & away.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[rtyuiop]

Trikes would actually be my preferred option, but most of them have low seat weight limits (100kg for the airbornes, except the new and expensive M4).  Even when I was in high school and in decent shape I was almost 100kg!

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Funny how many aircraft designers were smallish men. Klaus Holighaus and Rod Stiff come to mind. Gosh there are some things in life where smaller is better huh.

 

 

[jetjr]

Theres should be some Jabiru 2xx around, handles weight fine as AC flys in other catagories up to 760kg

 

Some older 19 reg are limited to 544 but some are 600kg

 

Can get a good one for $60 Id say, I know of one which might be for sale

 

 

[skippydiesel]

ATEC aircraft are now all at 600 kg so that leaves about 300 kg (depending on fit out) for Pax, fuel & luggage.

 

 

[rtyuiop]

Yeah, used Jabs seem to be plentiful.  If I'm lucky by the time I'm ready to buy the RAA weight limit increase might come through and could be applied to existing J2xxs.

 

Would love an Atec, sent off a request for kit pricing!

 

 

[Downunder]

To some extent lsa pricing is relative to engine hours....

 

Probably more so than manufactured date and fit out...

 

There is a Foxbat that has just come on the market locally (WA), 200 odd engine hours. 2007 build...

 

ASKING $74 000..... Registered GA exp....

 

Not sure how much he could be knocked down, but could be good value.

 

You might even be able to twist my arm to deliver it...lol.

 

 

[jetjr]

No, increased weight wont apply to Jabirus due to stall speed remaining unchanged

 

 

[rtyuiop]

No, increased weight wont apply to Jabirus due to stall speed remaining unchanged

 

That makes sense...  And is a bit of a shame!

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

When the weight increase comes through there is the option of Cessna 150 / 152's at reasonable sale price, all SIDS done, LAME maintained.  I have a C152 - what I like about it is the weight I can carry in the baggage area.  I found most ultralights had nil to minimum baggage allowance, and I carted myself, the dog, o/n bag, emergency gear etc and went with full tanks (149 litres) around Western Qld.  RAA are hoping to get L1 maintenance approval for private (non-training / hire) purposes.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

When the weight increase comes through there is the option of Cessna 150 / 152's at reasonable sale price, all SIDS done, LAME maintained.  I have a C152 - what I like about it is the weight I can carry in the baggage area.  I found most ultralights had nil to minimum baggage allowance, and I carted myself, the dog, o/n bag, emergency gear etc and went with full tanks (149 litres) around Western Qld.  RAA are hoping to get L1 maintenance approval for private (non-training / hire) purposes.

 

No offence but I dont think you looked very far for a good weight/performance RAA registerable aircraft.

 

Check out the ATEC range - basic empty weight in the vicinity of 300 kg (as with all aircraft final weight will depend on fit out). That leaves 300 kg for fuel, Pax, luggage.

 

Depending on model, fuel can be up to 100 litres ULP (about 74 Kg) leaving 226 kg for pilot + friend + gear.

 

At economy cruise of 100-125 knots (depending on model)  at 13-14 L /hr you will travel approximately 600 - 800 NM with reserves

 

According to Wikipedia: C152 has a 267 kg payload - 107 kg fuel = 160 kg for Pilot/Pax/luggage with a fuel burn of about 25 L/hr  you will be lucky to make 545 NM with reserves and take longer doing it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I trained on Cessna's , fell in & remain in love  BUT technology moves on  and I am afraid for performance, economy & weight carrying capacity they are now  well outclassed.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Pushing your own barrow Skippy? ?

 

I think price is also a factor

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Danny I did a Skyranger Nynja kit and can not fault it. Seat max is 120 kg,  I'm 6'1" and plenty of head clearance. My mtow is 540kg and empty weight is 286kg. Can get wing tanks which I have at 52 litres each and a 6 litre collector tank so good range.  I have wing tanks. Flys great cruise 90 to 100 when you want.  Max rough air 90 kts and vne 117kts (actual tested 125kts but chose 117 to allow a 120 kt ASI instrument )  Therefore are some reports on this site under the Skyranger heading. Kit is bolt together and no painting required. Re mtow the new kits all have the 600kg mtow bits except for the 600kg undercarriage as its still being certified.I'll be moding mine in twelve months. If your ever at Mackay give me a call and we can arrange a fly. Cheers and try many before you decide. Don't just look at the advertising and people's comments. Aircraft are fun to own, maintain and fly or whatever bits you like. Cheers Mike

 

 

[RocketShip]

If you are not looking for speed the Savannah is a very good option for you. Payload is very good, as Kyle has mentioned. 

 

Is available as a kit and plenty of 19 rego home built available to buy. 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Pushing your own barrow Skippy? ?

 

I think price is also a factor

 

For sure! however specifications are real life - no "gilded lily" here. Happy to demo to doubters/ potential purchasers.

 

Yeah price is a problem - the kits (Faeta & Zephyr both very very advanced so will save you a lot of work & extra materials) will help the cash strapped and at the end of the day it's a lot of performance (kit or factory built) for the dollar, especially for anyone who wants to tour.

 

I echoe Blueadventures advice - "try many before you decide. Don't just look at the advertising and people's comments. "

 

 

[Downunder]

No offence but I dont think you looked very far for a good weight/performance RAA registerable aircraft

 

I would have to agree. I'm getting about 263 kg usable load for a 152?..... very ordinary. 

 

Drinking avgas (24 lph)compared to unleaded 95 (17 lph) for a Rotax and compulsory "LAME maintained" is a negative, not a positive for me....

 

And 40 yr old airframes where ANYTHING costs an arm and a leg......

 

 

[rtyuiop]

Yeah, the purchase price of an old 152 (or skipper/tomahawk) is very attractive but everything else would be expensive, and the payload isn’t as good as some of the existing LSAs...  But I guess a 30K price difference in price difference does buy a lot of avgas and a moderate amount of LAME time.

 

At the moment my list of LSAs is long and would depend on what I found secondhand.  Also have some cheaper kits as possibilities (Sierra, sky ranger, bushcat) but not sure if the savings are worth the hundreds of hours....

 

Still considering trikes too!  

 

 

[facthunter]

LSA's have the same problem as GA where you can't modify or work on it. All for a 600 kgs max weight. It's hard to build a 2 seater with less than 310 Kgs empty weight unless Its made of exotic materials,(='s expensive).. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

LSA's have the same problem as GA where you can't modify or work on it. All for a 600 kgs max weight. It's hard to build a 2 seater with less than 310 Kgs empty weight unless Its made of exotic materials,(='s expensive).. Nev

 

"LSA's have the same problem as GA where you can't modify or work on it." - What are we referring to here ? - RAA 19 is, to all intents and purpose an experimental category - can build/modify/maintain. I dont see the "problem". If you go 24(factory) you can have the aircraft custom made /fitted to your specifications (no need to modify). As far as I understand with an L1 you are able to do basic servicing but not repairs.

 

"All for a 600 kgs max weight. It's hard to build a 2 seater with less than 310 Kgs empty weight " - Check out a base/simple (as in not loaded with accessories ) ATEC Zephyr or Faeta for flyable weight. Both are serious aircraft, with an astonishing flight envelope from STOL capability to high speed cruise on Rotax engines from 80 -115 hp. 

 

"unless Its made of exotic materials,(='s expensive)." It's all relative Nev. You can spend years in a labour (uncounted $$$) of love/craftsmanship to arrive at a beautiful flying machine OR spend a bit more up front and fly tomorrow. Some of us are builders and some are flyers. Not suggesting you can't be both but most of us will make a decision one way or the other and pay the costs accordingly.

 

I lust after all the conventional  straight tail Cessna's but could not afford to keep one. Somehow I manage to operate a Zephyr that may not have the classic looks  but effortlessly outperforms (in the 100 +hp range) the spam can brigade.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

.............................................................................................

 

Also have some cheaper kits as possibilities (Sierra, sky ranger, bushcat) but not sure if the savings are worth the hundreds of hours....

 

Still considering trikes too!  

 

Kit aircraft are not all equal: 

 

• There are boxes of parts/materials with plans that may take (many) years to craft & assemble.
   
  
• Then there are fast/quick builds, usually metal, with pre drilled & CNC parts, that you assemble according to the build instructions - will take months to years depending on completeness & your ability.
   
  
• Finally there are the very fast builds, probably no more than a week or two (assuming all components are on hand) - these are usually composite aircraft.
   
  

 

The cost? In general you have the low to high cost listed in order above. This is the over the counter payment cost. You may be happy to spend thousands of unaccounted ($$) for hours to keep the upfront cost low or alternatively pay a bit more for a quicker result - the choice is yours. 

 

On the matter of configuration & capability - it may take some time and heartache but  I would advise thinking hard about the "mission" you want this aircraft to perform. Try to narrow your "wants" it will help you to get the feel of what's available and at what price. Eg If you imagine one day flying around Australia, you may want to look more toward aircraft with good range/speed/economy. On the other hand your interest may be lazy afternoons exploring the "training area" with the wind in your face -  range/speed/economy not so much of an advantage, more your trike type aircraft and purchase cost..