Soar Aviation and Box Hill Institute lose accreditation

[facthunter]

You have gone to the trouble to examine it as you see it. All the  Aircraft you mention are not windy tolerant nor are they built for thousands of hours of training abuse as the GA plane s of the past were by any stretch of the imagination. Also Instructor skills and experience could easily be a factor, and I doubt many failing  the course would go down well with those paying up front money. I think there's a lot of "I've Paid , now where is my ticket?.  The blind cannot lead the blind.  This is more the system than the people involved who are probably very nice and just normal people like we were. Nev

 

 

[kgwilson]

The use of European LSAs for training is something I'd look at closely. They are built lightly and won't take being smashed onto the tarmac too well. Students are very hard on aircraft. This is why the C150 & 152 which were built like the proverbial brick outhouse  were used for so many years. They took a lot of punishment before failing. If schools need a good solid trainer now the Jabiru 170 would be hard to beat. Super solid airframe and the new Gen 4 engines are superb. Yes they require specific maintenance and the engines don't like being treated like a car engine where as the Rotax is more tolerant in that area. But the price is right and support is excellent. Maintained well they go the distance.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a pity Bill Whitneys Boomerang hadn't fitted in there somewhere.  Design Built as a trainer from scratch.  The product from Cowra was promising also (in my opinion). Nev

 

 

[FlyBoy1960]

You should all keep dreaming with these fantasies.   

 

Opinions are good, but sometimes they need validating with actual hard data, not just plane xyz is fantastic.  There are more used Jabiru nosewheels in hangers around Australia as ornaments than their are recreational planes.

 

Data, Data, Data, way better than opinions only. 

 

Sorry i am being harsh but thats how it is 

 

 

[facthunter]

The early jabs had weak nosewheels That's long ago. It's easy to prevent nosewheel damage on a jab, just keep the stick back to have the weight off it. It's more directionally controllable as well.  What is your opinion FlyBoy.? What would you use at your flying school and I'm sure we all agree we need flying schools. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

From a student and training facility providers perspective, the Foxbat will be easier if time and money are critical.

 

A Jabiru will probably make a better pilot but at the expense of time and hours flown.

 

A Foxbats nosewheel can be "held off" at not much more than walking pace, taking off and landing. Foxbat "yokes" maybe seen as more GA .....

 

Wheelbarrow landings are never kind to ANY aircraft.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

From a student and training facility providers perspective, the Foxbat will be easier if time and money are critical.

 

A Jabiru will probably make a better pilot but at the expense of time and hours flown.

 

A Foxbats nosewheel can be "held off" at not much more than walking pace, taking off and landing. Foxbat "yokes" maybe seen as more GA .....

 

Wheelbarrow landings are never kind to ANY aircraft.....

 

There are plenty of joysticks in GA.

 

You're right about a low-energy aircraft; the extra time and cost required for incident-proofing in all weathers as against a zero wind flyer,is likely to put a pilot going for a CPL  out of pocket compared to a C152, PA-28 or C172,  and the whole culture is different to GA so a lot of re-learning is involved, but if you intend staying with RA and low-energy they will make you a better pilot.

 

 

[FlyBoy1960]

The "perfect" aircraft doesnt exist, the "best" aircraft is based on what training you are doing and location. 

 

At Jacobs Well we have Slings, Foxbats and a few others used in training and they all go pretty well. 

 

A LOT of Slings come back for rebuilds when they are damaged (because the importer is there) so we see a lot of broken ones being repaired so they do have some weakness problems, the foxbats have also been down as well, same thing, nosewheels.

 

No Jabs used here, i think there are 3 on the field from about 80 planes, just not popular and no real positive comments either except from the guys who own them.

 

It comes back to what your goals are to what is the best plane to train in.  No use training in a Sling if you are going to be flying a CUB from outback areas.  No use in training in a CUB if you want to fly a plastic fantastic from sealed runways.  I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

 

[Butch]

It was a habit to watch the yellow budgies doing circuits as the landings were always interesting to say the least.

 

It got to a stage where I felt compelled to say to an SOAR instructor they needed to address the situation as maybe a worse outcome such as serious injury may be imminent. Understandably this did not go down well. Many of the hard landings I witnessed had instructors on board!

 

Tell me about it!

 

A few times I just had to get out of the circuit...lack of communication and flying skills made it scary!

 

I think they have a lot to answer .

 

 

[kgwilson]

A comment from the CFI of the local flying school when they were looking at getting a replacement aircraft was that "There are plenty of aircraft that are easier to fly than the Jab but all are more expensive and newly qualified pilots go away with more confidence in their their piloting skills than they actually have. If you learn to fly in the Jab you can fly anything" The existing 170D has had 3 engines. The top end was done on the first & it was replaced at 2000 hours, the second was traded on a new engine at 1000 hours as it was a better deal than the top end overhaul & the last had a problem at 700 hours. It has had 1 new nose leg in that time. When the weather was good they were doing an oil change a week.

 

 

[facthunter]

People will have their favourites always. The gazelle did a great job for what it is, but is too easy to fly. When people got out of them and into something else often their confidence went out the window.  You could fly it in windy conditions. when you wouldn't get much else out of the hangar.. Something made from .015" sheet has a bit of a job lasting for long and you don't want bulldozer drivers pushing hard on the rudder pedals of any of them. One has to remark on the way the Fibreglass of a jab stands up to being pranged. It's often quite impressive. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

Latest news.

 

A class action law suit is being looked into.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Even if you get a  win, were will the money come from? Nev

 

 

[kasper]

It will come from the RTO who are required to have teach out plans for exactly this situation. Will not help all - if you’ve had training and failed you’re out of luck - but if you’ve unspent VET training loans then the RTO is liable.  

box hill is a big organisation and the RTO so expect it as one defendant.  Then it’s the company that sits behind Soar aviation and lastly the directors of That company if they are trying to get really into digging.  

 

 

but as business development and cashing out goes it would seem an entrepreneurial individual who cashed out half the shares prior to failure of the RTO status that appears to support Soar aviation will likely walk away.  

 

 

[Litespeed]

The whole training field has been a debacle of epic neo liberal proportions.

 

Since 3/1996 when Howard got in, the writing has been on the wall. Every effort has been made to starve " the left wing" uni and training system to a market only right wing profit system.

 

Student unions were effectively banned and so thus their advocacy of students and quality. This was all part 

 

Of a long term LNP plan. At same time doors were opened to mass foreign students, quality fell through the floor and the gov were fully aware. Fees were drastically raised, Austudy severely restricted, and Academics discovered tenure was only for the connected few. 

 

The gov of Lnp loaded uni boards and regulators with LNP hacks . 

 

A lot of the new RTO's, surprise had previous political mates as owners.

 

Billions were cut from budgets and handed over to private providers for very very very small results.

 

As soon as they could the LNP gamed the federal training and state Tafe by insisting they competed with private to get funding. As their ideology says public is evil and must be stopped from getting money the privateers want.

 

States bought this bullshite and opened education to competition but fully in knowledge the public system was hobbled by the rules.

 

Result Tafe is a one legged goat in a paddock of gold plated sharks.

 

We have trashed our whole education system, and quality is what luxury car you drive.

 

Today is still a captured system. 

 

Just like social services and medicine, if they can't ban it they will wreck it by private profiteering.

 

The gov does not want anyone but the rich getting a quality education, it reinforces their power for generations.

 

If you don't have rich parents you will work lots of jobs to pay rent and bills to study or last long enough to get AUstudy. Most wait 6 months for approval by which time they might have left uni. 

 

The rich are deserving - just ask them

 

 

[Litespeed]

Vote one Jabawocky.

 

They are probably the best trainer out there. 

 

They teach pilots not fools who just think they can fly.

 

You fly them all the time, no laziness. They are responsive and teach hands on skills like few others. 

 

They will accept a bit of poor piloting but will let you know it. That is important, you know your skill level- no over confidant pilots graduate with a Jabawocky.

 

Yes you can damage them training as should be the case, but they are easily repaired and don't fall apart after hard use not been reported.

 

You can kill yourself in a Jabawocky when training but you really really have to try hard. Many a repairable Jabiru incident is a write off or fatal in lessor aircraft.

 

In a world of no new 152 Cessna's the Jabawocky is the training aircraft. Also cheaper, locally made and tough as nails.

 

 

[Butch]

The rich are deserving - just ask them

 

Go you socialist thing!

 

My kids couldn't get Austudy because I'm supposed to be a rich farmer!

 

I'm not like you with paid holidays, super and long service.

 

It must be hard being an employee working for all us self made capitalist pigs who are taking all the risks and putting there lifes work on the line so that there are jobs out there?  

 

 

[Litespeed]

Wtf?

 

I never said Farmers were at fault did I?

 

There is nothing socialist about wanting the promised education that our government says is a right to any who have the intellect. Nor wanting the funding to go to the public sector, its public money remember.

 

Just because a farmer does not qualify , does not mean a great deal, except the rules where changed by Howard in 1996 in the first days of power. The changes dumped huge numbers of kids including farmers offspring from being eligible.

 

I know, I worked at the angry end of it all, advocating for students to get Austudy to continue at uni. Even worse I personally had reviews made to get over 50 farmers sons and daughters get Austudy, when they read the rules unfairly to discriminate against students.

 

I certainly did not care if they had views left or right wing.

 

Don't sprout your angry bashing of workers or students or scientists and other education workers.

 

Your reply tends to indicate you feel a unusual sense of entitlement or anger against those who arent bussiness owners. Is it because your a farmer or a LNP voter?

 

Neither entitles you to more access to government services than any one else. Nor better funding for their education.

 

If that's socialist, I am happy to be called that. Its actually just fairness. 

 

PS I haven't had paid holidays or super from fulltime work in a decade. My super wouldn't buy a damn cheap new 4wd. 

 

People in glass houses?

 

 

[Butch]

Don't sprout your angry bashing of workers or students or scientists and other education workers.

 

I'm not !

 

we live in one of the best country's in the world.

 

Go and visit a third world country and see what you get for free!

 

I certainly did not care if they had views left or right wing.

 

Well you could have fooled me!

 

 

[Litespeed]

I'm not !

 

we live in one of the best country's in the world.

 

Go and visit a third world country and see what you get for free!

 

I think if you re read what you wrote, you gave a very distinct impression.

 

Well you could have fooled me!

 

Unfortunately some are fooled easier than others.

 

In all my career I never, ever discriminated in my time, tuition, scientific work or health care work in extreme  risk environments- as in putting your lifes work and actual life on the line daily for 15 years. Everyone deserved and got the same level of attention and care/knowledge and or advocacy irrespective of their or parents bank balance or views. And never received a cent for much of it. My last paid Job was a real cracker- when the cops were called, they would often say- Mate "what the fark do you expect us to do, I have a taser, gun and hand cuffs. I am not going in that house without using at least 2" Then I would be going in and no weapons. Just a compassionate mind and decades of experience in conflict resolution/mental health/developmental disability and real time at the university of hard knocks. I never had a vest , must be because they didn't have a pink one maybe?

 

My last workplace of 7 years saw me watch 75 staff either leave from stress, or assaults some life changing.

 

Yep, us lefty pinko nancy boys just suck off the public tit and get scared by a spider. Wouldn't know a hard days work and risk unless it bit em on the bum

 

Go you socialist thing!

 

My kids couldn't get Austudy because I'm supposed to be a rich farmer!

 

I'm not like you with paid holidays, super and long service.

 

It must be hard being an employee working for all us self made capitalist pigs who are taking all the risks and putting there lifes work on the line so that there are jobs out there?  

 

Gee Butch,  must be hard slaving away, so the rest of the world can enjoy life and drink from your swill bucket. And all those bloody employees insisting on rights like fairness, a safe work environment and a million other "lefty pinko commie socialist clap trap" things. 

 

It must make your skin crackle.

 

 

[Butch]

Gee Butch,  must be hard slaving away, so the rest of the world can enjoy life and drink from your swill bucket. And all those bloody employees insisting on rights like fairness, a safe work environment and a million other "lefty pinko commie socialist clap trap" things. 

 

It must make your skin crackle.

 

As my Dad used to say....take a teaspoon of cement and harden the .... up!

 

Shit happens ..we don't need lefty guys like you preaching how bad our capitalist society is.

 

I applaud you for the work you are obviously doing. It doesn't mean people like me aren't concerned about the failures of our politicians and society in general.

 

We just don't want it shoved down our throat that if you are right wing and an employer you are the blame for all the country's problems. 

 

PS. you're  preaching to the wrong person , farmers are only second to mining with deaths in the work environment.

 

After the fires and the drought we will probably take out the top spot. I'm sure after losing all their life's work a few will be tipped over the edge.  

 

 

[Litespeed]

I am hard enough.

 

Harden up??

 

I didn't squeal when the actual historical truth was presented. To choose which facts or history you believe is not relevant, reality does not change just because you do not like it.  

 

If you did not agree with anything I said- then discuss. Don't have a hissy fit and just say its all lefty stuff we don't want to hear.

 

I did not say the right wingers are all bad, all employers were bad nor all of government is bad. Intelligent capitalism can be a very good thing.

 

It am not shoving it down anyone's throat. 

 

I certainly did not say they eat the young nor that the left never gets it wrong. 

 

Guess I was a bit too slow to jump the gun, but I like to think then aim.

 

 

[NotSoSuperSonic]

There's a familiar face in the July 2017 RAAus directors election spiel edition of the Sport Pilot magazine.  It, along with a number of other items and events, again raises the question of the level of RAAus involvement in this debacle.  

 

 

[Butch]

Ok Litespeed,

 

we'll agree to disagree.

 

Back to the original topic before I get moderated,

 

cheers

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

There's a familiar face in the July 2017 RAAus directors election

 

Yes, he stood for election.  Any member can put their hand up.   There is no mechanism for saying "we think he's a bit sus don't accept his nomination".  The election spiel is written by the candidate, RAA does not go into the truth of the statement.  Even if he did get on the Board, he is still only one of seven.

 

The system is fairer than when Ian (Admin) nominated and certain members conspired to delay his membership, so that it lapsed while nominations were open and Ian was denied the chance to stand.  You can read about it on the forum, or PM Admin.  This was years ago with RAAus Inc.