How many Savannah S Taildraggers in NZ & Aust?

[Tony van Vliet]

G’day,

 

I would like to know if there are any Savannah S taildraggers operating in your part of the world?

 

safe flying,

 

Tony

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

None as far as I know in OZ thats for sure

 

 

[JG3]

Taildragger configuration doesn't work well on a Savannah or 701. Have to move the main gear forward, and with the tailwheel at the back, the angle of attack that can be pulled on takeoff and landing is less than at present and performance is less good..... With the present gear can rotate more and when landing can hold the nose wheel way off the ground, so that it's landing very much like the best taildragger anyhow.

 

The cabin structure isn't built to take the load of mains at a point forward of the present strong point, and there's also the question of whether the tail cone could handle the loads of a tailwheel, especially on rough ground.

 

Bad idea all round, better as it is.....

 

 

[Rastus]

Taildragger configuration doesn't work well on a Savannah or 701. Have to move the main gear forward, and with the tailwheel at the back, the angle of attack that can be pulled on takeoff and landing is less than at present and performance is less good..... With the present gear can rotate more and when landing can hold the nose wheel way off the ground, so that it's landing very much like the best taildragger anyhow.

 

The cabin structure isn't built to take the load of mains at a point forward of the present strong point, and there's also the question of whether the tail cone could handle the loads of a tailwheel, especially on rough ground.

 

Bad idea all round, better as it is.....

 

And yet:  https://www.icpaviazione.it/?page_id=1710&lang=en

 

Seems the factory doesn't have an issue with a tailwheel.

 

Robert

 

 

[JG3]

The photo on their website illustrates my point exactly.

 

Using the underside of the wing as reference, I measure an angle of attack with the tailwheel on the ground of only 13°, and that's nowhere near the maximum lift coefficient of that wing.

 

With nosewheel Savannah allows about 19° before the tail contacts the ground.

 

I'd match a nosewheel version against that taildragger version any time in a takeoff/landing comp.....

 

 

[eightyknots]

And yet:  https://www.icpaviazione.it/?page_id=1710&lang=en

 

Seems the factory doesn't have an issue with a tailwheel.

 

Robert

 

The factory may not have a problem with the tailwheel version but they had to make the aeroplane heavier to achieve it. This is a quote from their website:

 

The fuselage has been further reinforced to accommodate the main landing gear that was moved in a forward position.

Corresponding with the tail wheel, the rudder has been enlarged to improve the directional control on the ground.

 

This has the effect of adding 12 kg on to the weight of the tricycle version using official ICP website's figures. The tall rudder adds 0.5 kg so the beefing up of the airframe has added 11.5 kg.

 

I think the best thing that ICP has introduced with the tailwheel version is the taller rudder now available as an add-on to the kit. I did buy the tall rudder kit and it adds about 420 grams in weight. This does not include the extra paint that will go on it in future. All up, I estimate around 1/2 kg. Reg Brost developed this and the idea was soon after this borrowed by ICP in the same way they liked Stolspeed's (JG3's) vortex generators which are now found on almost all Savannahs sold.

 

The irony is that the tall rudder kit is sold in considerably greater quantities to tricycle Savannah builders than to tailwheel builders.

 

 

[Tony van Vliet]

I had two Savannahs, a nosewheel and a Taildragger. I recently sold the Nosewheel version.

 

For info the empty weight of the nosewheel version was 307.2 kgs and the taildragger is 312.1 kgs.

 

However I can fix that by going on diet  (can easily afford to shed 20Kgs)

 

I personally prefer the TD however both models are great little aeroplanes,

 

Fly safely!

 

Tony

 

[eightyknots]

Here is a picture of one of the New Zealand tricycle Savannahs with a rudder extension fitted followed by the yellow Savannah which had it added later. This allows you to see the increase of the rudder's surface area.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Doesn't hurt to have a bit more rudder on a slow plane. I'd prefer the nose to sit a bit lower on the ground than those do so you can pin it on more effectively in gusts. Nev

 

 

[rankamateur]

Here is a picture of one of the New Zealand tricycle Savannahs with a rudder extension fitted followed by the yellow Savannah which had it added later. This allows you to see the increase of the rudder's surface area.

 

[ATTACH alt=ZK CJV.PNG]43080[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH alt=ZK BIC.JPG]43081[/ATTACH]

 

This is the factory supplied parts that I ordered with my kit. Very similar to Reg's Aerokits ones he scratch built for the two he did before ICP took it up for their taildragger. Their heavy fibreglass tip is a bit neater that the fin and rudder cap that Reg initially welded together for the job.

[rankamateur]

The Glider Tug version has quite a bit more structure than the nose wheel fuselage so they wouldn't be shy about beefing up the area around the tailwheel and forward of the

CofG in the area of the forward gear.

[Thermix]

If there is an owner of a taildragging Savannah reading this, I would dearly love to know the results of your weight and balance. In the pilot's operating handbook for the S model, these are listed as Pt, Pm (the sum of the weight on the main wheels), Dt and Dm. I'd be very grateful if you could email those to me at andtone2602(at)gmail(dot)com. For better or worse, I'm converting an XL into a taildragger and would love some representative numbers to guide my calculations. Many thanks in advance, Tony.

[rankamateur]

For better or worse, I'm converting an XL into a taildragger and would love some representative numbers to guide my calculations. Many thanks in advance, Tony.

 

Are you going to cut a sunroof too so you can stand up and see where you arte taxiing?

[petr]

Hi please I would like to convert the savannah XL to a taildragger. What reinforcements did they send you from ICP? Are there any plans to find out if it works on my plane? could you send something to meil thanks peter

 

[petr]

sorry I did not write an e-mail [email protected] thank you Petr

[eightyknots]

On 29/07/2021 at 10:00 AM, petr said:

Hi please I would like to convert the savannah XL to a taildragger. What reinforcements did they send you from ICP? Are there any plans to find out if it works on my plane? could you send something to meil thanks peter

 

I wonder what part of the fuselage ICP strengthens for the taildragger version of the Savannah S?

[Thermix]

Eighty knots: As I'm sure you know, the S fuselage has a radius on the corners of the box beam structure of the fuselage (as opposed to the right-angled corners on the previous models). This is inherently stiffer, though I can't quantify what the improvement is. This design also has twice as many longerons (eight cf. four) relative to the XL. Again, another inherent improvement. So the only reinforcement provided are a few plates around the tail-wheel segment itself to take up and distribute the concentrated forces here. The mains are also shifted forward and, in the factory version, these points get some reinforcement too.   

 

Petr: There is a kit available, but they are very reluctant to provide this for the XL. You'd be best speaking to the local distributor if you wanted to go down this route.   

[onetrack]

A panel or load-bearing member gains substantial additional strength if it contains a 90° bend, as compared to a radiused section.

This is why sharp creases are installed in body panels and structural members on vehicles and machinery, it adds to the strength of the panel or member by a considerable amount, as well as reducing flex and "drumming".

Angle iron and Rectangular Hollow Section (RHS) steel sections, are substantially stronger than pipe sections, for the same amount of steel in cross-section. This rule applies for virtually all construction materials.