'Flight shaming' and the ethics of recreational flying?

[Litespeed]

guys, breathing, cow fa.ts, insect emissions and worm juice all produce CO2.   Do we get rid of thos too.   I think if you are going to worry about all of the things that peoduce CO2 then nothing will get done.   Maybe we should all live in sealed caves using co2 filters.  Aircraft do very little to increase the CO2 load.  Plant more trees and get over it...

 

The biggest problem is we are living on carbon and environments that took millions of years to get here. If we only consumed the resources our planet can produce in our life time we would be ok. But you can't introduce millions of years of carbon resources in 200 years and not expect trouble.

 

To think otherwise is either pure selfishness or complete ignorance.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The biggest problem is we are living on carbon and environments that took millions of years to get here. If we only consumed the resources our planet can produce in our life time we would be ok. But you can't introduce millions of years of carbon resources in 200 years and not expect trouble.

 

To think otherwise is either pure selfishness or complete ignorance.

 

We're living  with many things that took millions of years to get here. How about taking this theory across to the What's Up site and leaving us to focus on what might happen to recreational aircraft in the next few years

 

 

[pmccarthy]

It is likely that Avgas will become scarce and more expensive for political/greenie reasons. So low consumption Mogas engines and aircraft will become more popular. That could make a wider range of them available, or demand could drive up the price.

 

 

[facthunter]

If they produced more of one type of engine the price should come DOWN. Some grades of avgas have been unavailable for years. The main cause is  there's nowhere near the demand for it that there once was. No other "technical" reason.  E 85 might be an answer. A renewable form of fossil fuel can be produced. You just need the will and pay the cost. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

If they produced more of one type of engine the price should come DOWN. Some grades of avgas have been unavailable for years. The main cause is  there's nowhere near the demand for it that there once was. No other "technical" reason.  E 85 might be an answer. A renewable form of fossil fuel can be produced. You just need the will and pay the cost. Nev

 

Ethanol in fuel can be a disaster for engines which are not used at least once a week (or at least their carbies). The ethanol residue gums up the hidden galleries in a carbie, and in many cases you have to buy a new carbie, and in some cases where the engine and carbie have been custom designed for each other and no spares are available, the whole engine. I lost about four ag engines this way until I started using 98 in everything, then it's just a matter of charging the tank with some new fuel.

 

 

[facthunter]

Holden make a model that will run on it (E 85) and 100% ethanol is used in Brazil for  Aerial ag work.  Methanol is the standard fuel for motorcycle speedway machines. It's hygroscopic and needs to have the engines hot when shutting down to avoid corrosion.. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

Lost most of my garden motors due to Ethanol gumming.

 

bought a carbi kit but still wouldn't run, 2 edger's  2 whipersnippers and one out of two blowers,

 

The other blower I cleaned with "decoke Spay" blew though the jets & anything /everything I could.

 

It's running a bit better than previous.

 

Good job the Delica is diesel as it stood for 14 months between refuelling. (as per logbook)

 

 spacesaillor

 

 

[old man emu]

Here's another example of people believing that there is no solution to a problem. It's not an impossibility to start fitting seals and exhaust valves that will accept ethanol in fuels. If the Brazilians are use 80 to 100% ethanol, what have they done to their engines to deal with the problem?

 

I had the exhaust valve seats of my bike's engine fitted with seats that will handle the higher temps of E10, but I still use 91 octane out of habit. 

 

It is interesting to see how plant fibres are coming back into vogue for all sorts of things. There's culery and pilliow and chopping boards and even underdaks made from the stuff. Sugar cane stems are another new source. And don't forget hemp and flax make great cloth. We might give cotton a miss due to the high usage of nasty chemicals in its production.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

This is where its all the biggest load of bollocks..all the nanby panby do gooders who want to change the world and change it NOW.  I have been sitting back reading the tennis match between naysayers and sayers and its all a crock....I think everyone wants to change that is on here the difference is some are pie in the sky dreamers and the others are pragmatists...I am a pragmatist.   What does your life and the world run on???? its called money of course not ideals. There is way too much money being earnt by the climate change screamers its a pure economy by itself. We all know things must change but at what cost..this is the number one question that needs to be addressed. Selling coal to other countries ??yeah well ok lets stop tomorrow....well all those on the pension and dole bludgers better get ready to start eating out of garbage bins because there simply wont be enough in the coffers to support you guys. All the ones that do actually have a job and work and pay the current high taxes that do keep this country running will just have to strap on another leg so we can work longer and faster to pay all the extra taxes required to run the place when we do stop all of our exports. This all goes back to do you want to have long matted hair and sit by a river trying to catch some snails to eat because you cant have a fire because the Co2 it emitts...yes you may say thats a bit extreme but int he eyes of most of these climate changer demanders that is what the real outcome will be. The whole system has to change the way we teach people the way money is funded to develop new technologies to help reduce our footprint but this has to be done on a world scale...we are a piss in the ocean when it comes to what we can do. Why is it so difficult for people to realise this. The me me now now generation just doesnt seem to be able to grasp what actually needs to go behing everything like the way power have to be generated and the loads that require base load and how all that works. They just look at the picture not who or even how it was painted let alone the detail behind how they made the paint that allowed that painting to be done. Its the facts behind every story like this that seems to be missing from these peoples brains or at least the comprehension of how it all comes together.

 

Until there is a truely world wide push to actually do something meaningful we all will suffer the consequences even though we are all just a pin prick on the world map.....most people forget that around the world there are plenty of cities that have the population of australia in them..we are just a dot on the map. Why totally wreck our economy when the major polluters dont give a damn when in the end it wont make any difference until they take a step towards some sort of action

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Kyle C, This is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it is not what this thread was created for. Check the issues raised in the Off Topic section and you can argue on this forever.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I realise that and thought someone would jump on me about it so be it...but the direction of the chat on here was in this direction as it is all actually related. I would love to have a smooth electric powered aircraft at a reasonable cost that actually had some range. This goes back to exactly what I was saying in the post. Until we actually get real about all this and spend the money required to develop NEW solutions that will actually help the climate/our footprint......like far better battery technology and better efficiency of electric motors and control...charging methods that dont rely on mains power out of the baseload supply. This is only one tiny part of areas that need addressing now and not in the future. Better power systems generation not reliant on so much fossil fuel..but it wont happen overnight.

 

So shaming of us flying our aircraft because they use a fuel that emits carbon so its a sin to fly your aircraft wont happen in our lifetime. neither will commercial airline travel because as far as I can see where are all the efforts by any powerhouse country to get this done...You have a few dedicated scientists trying their best to do something but the old issue of....got a problem throw money at it... doesnt seem to be on the agenda. All the screaming and tantrums done by the woke people is just show..actually get fair dinkum about it...I just dont see it happening in the near future to the extent it really needs to be done. So keep flying your gas powered and cO2 emitting aircraft because its not going to change anytime soon that I can see when there is too much money being made by the likes of Al Gore etc. Do you honestly think that if someone came up with a new technology that would fix the majority of our emmissions and the way we do things that it would be released out to the general populus for immediate use...too many very powerfull politicians and companies would stop it dead in its tracks.  So yes you can shame me if you want Greta but until you can solve these problems I dont want to hear from you...but I would be a early adopter

 

 

[facthunter]

Alcohol fuelled motors run heaps cooler than  paraffinic hydrocarbon fuels. and you can run very high compressions without detonation.  I think if your engines gumming the ethanol wouldn't be the cause on it's own. IF you adapt things  properly you can sort things out . Glow plug model plane engines run on methanol /castor.  Castor is not very stable and oxidises especially with a catalyst around like say copper or an alloy with it  in it,  but it's a good basic lube. I'd say a synthetic would be superior to it these days with a mixant..Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Throw into the mix that the three biggest emitters ( USA, China and India) make more CO2 in a week than we make in a year and all their emissions are rising - and the elephant in the room that no one in Australia wants to mention is that there is nothing we can do to change anything - beyond hold the high moral ground 

 

 

 

"HIGH MORAL GROUND"?

 

SAY WHAT????

 

YOU are the one that purchased YOUR keyboard, computer, shirts, pants, underwear, shoes, table, chair, the paint on your walls, the car you drive, the toilet you sit on, YOU. Nobody else, YOU.

 

Where it is made, China, India, Tasmania, Mexico, or any other 3rd World Country, ... is completely irrelevant to the fact that YOU are consuming it, and YOU caused the emissions that went hand in hand with the production of the product.. 

 

If YOU didn't purchase it, it wouldn't have been made, and no emissions would have been caused.

 

Answer to OP:  Change over to LPG if the crunch comes.

 

 

[Thruster88]

Just on the leaded Avgas issue, lycoming's new TEO-540 @ 375hp has a high specific output for a direct drive engine and is approved to use 100UL. It powers the new Tecnam P2012. Manufacturer's are gearing up to produce 100UL which will work in all the legacy engines. 

 

 

[Marty_d]

Alcohol fuelled motors run heaps cooler than  paraffinic hydrocarbon fuels. and you can run very high compressions without detonation.  I think if your engines gumming the ethanol wouldn't be the cause on it's own. IF you adapt things  properly you can sort things out . Glow plug model plane engines run on methanol /castor.  Castor is not very stable and oxidises especially with a catalyst around like say copper or an alloy with it  in it,  but it's a good basic lube. I'd say a synthetic would be superior to it these days with a mixant..Nev

 

From experience I can tell you that Castrol-M also leaves a dirty great oily streak along your fuselage aft of the muffler.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"....well all those on the pension and dole bludgers better get ready to start eating out of garbage bins because there simply wont be enough in the coffers to support you guys. "

 

BUT

 

Commerce can still pay CEO's $53 million Pa PLUS bonus, then a golden handshake .

 

NO hope for the working class after they retire Without superannuation, because No permanent work left anymore.

 

spacesailor 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Answer to OP:  Change over to LPG if the crunch comes.

 

It' been all over for LPG in the automotive industry from some years now; couldn't achieve the Emission Standard at the time (not sure which one, but I think Euro IV, so it's a non-starter for aircraft.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Methanol is the standard fuel for motorcycle speedway machines. It's hygroscopic and needs to have the engines hot when shutting down to avoid corrosion.

 

What has been done in speedway for about 20 years is at the end of a race meeting the fuel taps are turned off, and a container of about half a litre of petrol is attached to the fuel lines. The engine is started and petrol runs through the lines, carbies and engines for a few minutes. This is the only reliable solution for when there's a couple of weeks between race meetings.

 

Like most of the alternative fuels, you can pretty much decide whether it's viable just by studying its properties.In the case of these alcohol based fuels, the jetting size is double that of a petrol engine so the fuel consumption at cruise is double, and this extra weight would rule them out for a recreational aircraft alone.

 

Apart from that, there is no point in fiddling around in your shed with alternative fuels.

 

Way back in post #19 I explained which way the Department would go if you wish to bring up this subject and they have to look around for a standard. That standard will be Euro VI, and Jabiru/Rotax don't have the millions of dollars if would take to design and test to that standard, so if you want to persist in this stop getting off the subject and throwing up red herrings about global warming and stop throwing up red herrings about fuels you have known in the past. Even diesel now looks unlikely to have a long future because of the horrific cost of filtering particulates. So you are out of the air unless you can find a compliant engine and that means finding a Euro VI standard engine, making it work in an aircraft, and coping with the extra weight. This is not 1992, there is no point in even discussing things like LPG or alcohol based fuels. One possible alternative would be electric provided the batteries were solar charged, otherwise the best action is to STFU before the government steps in citing the thoughts of "industry people" (you).

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It' been all over for LPG in the automotive industry from some years now; couldn't achieve the Emission Standard at the time (not sure which one, but I think Euro IV, so it's a non-starter for aircraft.

 

Yaw not looking at it from the same direction as I am. 

 

Science says it's the cleanest fuel available, and "When Greeny's Attack", that's a defense that will be needed. 

 

It would hugely clean up the emissions of a Lyconti, Jabiru, ect, who's 1960's emissions are a long, long way from Euro 4.

 

One litre of petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO when burnt, whereas the equivalent amount of autogas (1.33 litre due to lower density of autogas) produces only 1.5 * 1.33 = 2 kg of CO when burnt., CO emissions are 30% lower,, and NO by 50%.

 

There is little choice if it goes down the road the OP is concerned about. I don't understand why some aren't on gas now.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

What has been done in speedway for about 20 years is at the end of a race meeting the fuel taps are turned off, and a container of about half a litre of petrol is attached to the fuel lines. The engine is started and petrol runs through the lines, carbies and engines for a few minutes. This is the only reliable solution for when there's a couple of weeks between race meetings.

 

 

 

I raced Classic Motorcycles for about 10 years, and used methanol. At first I would turn the fuel tap off, pull the line, get my little bottle of petrol/oil mix and run it through the carb till it almost stopped from being so much richer, 

 

Over the years I got lazier and lazier, and sometimes would leave the bike as raced straight off the trailer into the shed, where it would sit up to around 2 to 3 months. The bike would start just fine, there was no gumming, the small amount of fuel in the tank never went off, the occasional re-ring showed no pitting or any of the oft stated downsides of methanol.

 

 

[turboplanner]

 

I raced Classic Motorcycles for about 10 years, and used methanol. At first I would turn the fuel tap off, pull the line, get my little bottle of petrol/oil mix and run it through the carb till it almost stopped from being so much richer, 

 

Over the years I got lazier and lazier, and sometimes would leave the bike as raced straight off the trailer into the shed, where it would sit up to around 2 to 3 months. The bike would start just fine, there was no gumming, the small amount of fuel in the tank never went off, the occasional re-ring showed no pitting or any of the oft stated downsides of methanol.

 

I've had one engine which would do that too, and got lazy, but the next time round, with another engine, had to deal with four carbies full of white powder. For you and me this is just an irritation; a thorough clean-out and we are on our way, but in terms of the average rec flyer who may have taken three years to build his aircraft and at the last has taken his engine out of the box, done a little bit of taxying and then three months later decided to take off, or parks it for most of the year, he's used to the carbies working as they did the last time. Certainly any overheating in the combustion chamber would be gone, but the killer on these fuels is the fuel weight you'd have to carry.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yaw not looking at it from the same direction as I am. 

 

Science says it's the cleanest fuel available, and "When Greeny's Attack", that's a defense that will be needed. 

 

It would hugely clean up the emissions of a Lyconti, Jabiru, ect, who's 1960's emissions are a long, long way from Euro 4.

 

One litre of petrol produces 2.3 kg of CO when burnt, whereas the equivalent amount of autogas (1.33 litre due to lower density of autogas) produces only 1.5 * 1.33 = 2 kg of CO when burnt., CO emissions are 30% lower,, and NO by 50%.

 

There is little choice if it goes down the road the OP is concerned about. I don't understand why some aren't on gas now.

 

From that perspective, yes, you'd be taking them to about Euro I.  I'm on the record as saying diesel engines HAD to blow smoke; there was a cop near Ballarat who was obsessed with cleaning up trucks, and he'd book trucks for blowing smoke, they'd have to be taken to the one EPA testing station in Altona where an instruction would be issued to clean them up, and since some of them were just weeks old, the owners would bring them back to us to fix the engine or else. We'd replace injectors/fuel pumps and it would start again. I zeroed in on the cop and there was a conciliation meeting chaired by a member of parliament with three Inspectors on one side and about six operators an myself on the other. I managed to silence the room by pointing out who the cop was, where he sat beside the road (on a hill requiring WOT), and our cost of rebuilding as-new engines. I'd come with a set of Ringelmann Charts which were transparencies printed with various levels of dots, and proposed that Ringelmann 3 be accepted as a pass, which was agreed by the cops, and we lived in peace until Euro I hit, and Cummins announced that billion dollar investment, the Australian Government introduced an ADR, and any engine manufacturer who couldn't meet it was waved goodbye from Australia no matter how much they were financially affected. 

 

On the figures you showed vs the ones I referred to earlier, you can see that no one is concerned with CO since the limit hasn't been change for some years, but even after considerable improvement from the Ringelmann days, Euro VI is a 97% reduction for NOx, and 98% reduction for PM - astounding figures, which has led to engine design following the line of thought that the less fuel per kilowatt per hour we burn, the less emission there will be regardless of other actions we've taken, and that has given us a big payoff on nett fuel cost as fuel prices have continued to rise.

 

For recreational aircraft our problem is the Department currently has an accepted emission output, so that's where what we would have to achieve. I've put up variable limits myself in the past, for vehicles out in the country where it was just sheep or cattle who were affected, but the Department didn't budge.

 

Apart from that, with LPG you're faced with the same problem as CNG etc, a very heavy fuel tank.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

There are a lot of trucks that have LPG injection into the inlet manifolds on diesel trucks that make you burn all the diesel. Its supposed to give more power and better emmissions

 

 

[spacesailor]

Delica has a mod for LPG injection too.

 

Frightening. 

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

DOG (Diesel on gas) is probably still about but has dropped off the horizon a bit. The engine runs cleaner and oil stays cleaner and with less diesel knock and delivers more power so the  cooling system may be under  what is required, at the output limit. Often the turbo is dialled back to  (near) the original output. The gas % is quite low.  so the savings may not be a lot. . TOWN gas may be an option if you have  a large volume available as it's not compressed much. Gas prices have gone upwards of what they used to be, but near Melbourne it's still giving some of the best $/Km I can achieve with anything for getting me around.. GAS doesn't suit all engines. It's harder on valve seats. if they aren't made of reasonable material. Nev